Pot calling the kettle black. You contradicted me without even the courage to offer your own operative definition of racism. The burden of evidence was on you, not me.
Fair enough.
Racism is Prejudice plus Institutional Power. Racism is is combination of racial biases and prejudices combined with the institutional and social power to codify and enforce this prejudice onto an entire society. Racism is systemic; and the examples range from everything from explicitly prejudicial (such as segregation or redlining) to implicitly (such as remarkably uneven outcomes within law enforcement and criminal justice).
But let's step away from the systemic, academic definition of racism to the more colloquial one, which just leans on individual prejudice. Let's say, a baseline here is regarding that someone is lesser than solely on the basis of their race. None of the things you are talking about even really meet the boundaries of that, fairly broad definition.
Yes, it is. If we are going to have an honest discussion about race, we have to call out racism. Quite often you might have racist impulses that you aren't actually aware of, and it's helpful to this discussion to get people to question there assumptions. I'm willing to bet that we agree, and that you just disagree over who needs to reflect. However, you've tacitly agreed that the problem isn't my definition of racism, when you agreed that my "fantasy world" wouldn't have racism. So we aren't actually quibbling about that despite your indignation, we are only quibbling over how to get there from here.
Yes, the term "fantasy" was probably a little much. I think we are, in fact, quibbling over your definition of racism (see above), and we are in fact disagreeing over the things the other things that you state.
Then don't accuse me of it.
Fair. Consider it a general statement to the thread rather than at you, specifically. There are definitely those in the thread who have absolutely done so. I'm sorry to have lumped you in.
The sentence I didn't believe added much to the conversation, and to be honest I don't even recall snipping it. Is it possible you added it when you amended your post?
I believe the only words I added to that sentence post my original-post was "and impacted", though I'm certain you can double-check your notifications for the original version of my post (which was a bit snippier than I had intended)
But ok, if you want to address that, again, the fact of the matter is I never said that I had a problem with recognizing that the world is racist and addressing how it actually affects and impacts people. What I said was that if you feel the need to inquire as to the race of a person on the internet then you are racist, so once again you are just engaged in dishonest deflecting.
I would say that I don't see how you can't see that those are the exact same thing, but that would be a lie; I do understand it, and it has everything to do with your worldview not accepting the fact that not every human experience (or sum of human experiences, which is what we are talking about here) is universal. If you took even a moment to try to understand (not agree) with where I'm coming from (and to which I explained pretty clearly in my last post, which you again snipped from your reply) you would see how obviously I could see how the two are same.
You can disagree with my claim if you like, but so far you've instead chosen to be highly dishonest about what I actually said.
No, I'm re-framing to you the actual impact of what you're saying. You may disagree with the premises that led to those conclusions, but given the premise, yes, you are exactly saying that something that is exactly addressing the impact of racism (that is, inquiring as to the lived experiences of the people engaging in the conversation to have the proper point of view for their context) is racist. And that is, in fact, nonsense.
No, as a matter of actual fact, I'm saying this: "What I said is that you have to know the race of the person you are talking to because its that relevant to you, then it's racism."
I did not say:
Of course it is baloney, you just made it up. I said nothing in the quoted statement about peoples ability to empathize with others. Once again, you prefer to engage with me on dishonest terms rather than actually deal with what I said. You are off on this tangent, unrelated to what I said, about who can understand who. That's an interesting topic, but it is as a point of fact not what I said.
You did, you just don't realize that's what you were saying because you refuse to acknowledge the link between who can understand who and the reasons why someone's race might be relevant in a conversation about race and racism.
[quoteIt's about judging my as a stereotype based on what you guess I've experienced as a person based on stereotypical expectations about what a person of a given race has experienced. And that is racism. It's about claiming that a person's skin color gives them particular authority on a subject based on your stereotypical expectations about what that person has had to live through. And that is racism.[/quote]
No, it's about understanding deeper, broader, more insidious cultural factors at work, factor that are no longer often all that obvious but no less damaging in impact. And it's about listening to and believing the stories shared by others, and about understanding the limits of our own experiences based on the privileges we receive for living in a society geared towards people who look like us.
Lets make this real. Are you willing to stake your beliefs on your 100% certainty. That is, if you are wrong, will you actually sit back and think rather than deflecting?
Sure, but I'll hedge a little, because as we both know singular exceptions do not disprove rules. But sure. Find me a white person living in a white-dominated society that is routinely watched and followed in stores because of the color of their skin. Find me the white person living in a white-dominated society that is routinely targeted by their peers, teachers and counselors in school, solely based on the color of their skin. Find me the white person living in a white-dominated society who has to fear every interaction with every police officer they have, because what if he's one of those "bad apple" cops, or more accurately, a cop who inherently has a significantly greater fear of certain people due to the color of skin, and might think they need to react to that fear by killing me, which they will almost certainly not be punished for? Find me the white person living in a white-dominated society who has so few heroes and superheroes and role-models of the same race within the cultural milieu to look up to. Find the white person living in a white-dominated society who, any time there
is a new character in a work of pop culture that shares their race, has to hear an endless barrage of complaining that all this is doing appeasing whiny crybabies who, apparently, should just be happy that they are allowed to exist within fictional worlds at all, let alone as main characters? Find me the white person living in a white-dominated society who, anytime a work of pop culture predominantly features people who share the same color fails to find an audience and is cancelled, has to endure countless think pieces about how that failure was entirely due to the color of the skin of the main characters (an argument that happened in this very thread, mind you). Find me the white person in a white-dominated society who, any time they achieve anything, such as getting into a school, or getting a job, or landing a major role, is due
entirely based on the color of their skin, and that if and when they fail, their failure will be seen as also being based
entirely based on the color of their skin.
And that's just scratching the surface. That's just the individual prejudicial level BS people of color have to endure basically every day in our society. I haven't even gotten to the systemic-level outcomes, outcomes there are mountains and mountains of data revealing the sheer extent of.
But sure, find me a white person living in a white-dominated society who has to deal with all (or even just a majority) of that crap on a daily basis, and I'll reconsider whether white people do or do not have the ability to fully comprehend the lived experiences of people of color in a white-dominated society, and therefore,
maybe, that the color of one's skin has little to no bearing on their ability to contribute to a conversation about race.
