D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

Parmandur said:

No, not directly. 5E has four "Tiers," mostly in the background though explained in the DMG:

1-4 = Basic
5-10 = Expert
11-16 = Companion
17-20 = Master

Past that, the DMG has guidelines for progress thtoughBoons, Charms, etc.

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Hmmm what I have grasped is that Basic are the pre level 1, for 4e context (which seem intended to enable multiclassing in an elegant way) - The level 5 character seems like they feel like a level 1 in 4e.

However it will take more investigation to be sure because to me isn't clear that Expert really is 4e Heroic and Companion is Paragon and Master is Epic.

Epic in 4e implies a very grand scale (you can definitely reflavor to being less so but the default assumptions are most often analogous to Demi-Godhood - where your unusual birth and extraordinary gifts and accelerated learn schedule are products of Divinity - Dragonhood - Being the reincarnated King of Kings - Lord of Fae) .

Garthanos said:

However it will take more investigation to be sure because to me isn't clear that Expert really is 4e Heroic and Companion is Paragon and Master is Epic.

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IMO 5e Master is not 4e Epic hence no Thor types in 5e.
You could get there though with the DMG's Supernatural Gifts and Boons (post level 20).

pemerton said:

I hope it's fairly clear why I would read these as essentially reiterations of my point, rather than contradictions of it.

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Was I talking about your point or Hussars point?

Because I really can not see that one 4e DM allowing a character to plunge their hands into a forge is evidence that every 4e DM would allow it, or indeed any other DM. The 4e system is designed to force Players who want to maximise their chances of passing a skill challenge to try and use their best skills in anyway that the DM will allow.

I would imagine that the best system of DnD for creating magical items was actually ADnD because the adventure was in the assembly of the materials required rather then in the process of creation itself.

@pemerton and in part @Hussar

You have pushed for the merits of a defined skill table at various levels and/or mentioned 5e DM's giving varying DCs on skill checks as issues of the game.
I'm wondering if you have the same contempt, because it can only be described as contempt after so many posts, with TotM. Let us face it TotM can produce some varied results, not all DMs will have the exact same picture in their mind and certainly players will have different ones.
I'm wondering if you are consistent in your contempt for unsurety across the board or if you're just cherry-picking?

MwaO said:

Anyone could be a ritual caster. Just take one of a handful of ritual casting feats and boom, you're a ritual caster. Or buy ritual scrolls. Anyone could take a range of highly useful multi-class feats for an extra skill among other great benefits. This was PHB.

And two months later, any Fighter as of August 2008, two months after release date could be trained in any number of skills via Forgotten Realms backgrounds. Which are similar to 5e backgrounds. So a Fighter with an MC feat+background could be trained in 2 Fighter skills+2 other skills. Number of skills sound familiar? Literally 4e 2 months after release.

Also, ritual casting tended to be expensive enough in Heroic that it usually was rare and 4e took a giant nerf hammer to 'negate plot' options. So there were limits compared to other editions.

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So the answer was become a caster... and/or get a bonus to skills any other class could take and increase their number as well... still leaving a fighter with the lowest number of skills.

Shasarak said:

Was I talking about your point or Hussars point?

Because I really can not see that one 4e DM allowing a character to plunge their hands into a forge is evidence that every 4e DM would allow it, or indeed any other DM. The 4e system is designed to force Players who want to maximise their chances of passing a skill challenge to try and use their best skills in anyway that the DM will allow.

I would imagine that the best system of DnD for creating magical items was actually ADnD because the adventure was in the assembly of the materials required rather then in the process of creation itself.

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Good point... are there any official 4e Epic adventures where something like the forge example @pemerton gave is a part of an official skill challenge or check? I was glancing through an epic tier adventure from Dungeon called "Those Once Loyal" and the skill challenges and checks I saw seemed pretty mundane (with the epicness seeming to come from the opposition as opposed to the capabilities of the PC's). I've included one below but I have to say none of the suggested uses of skills comes close to sticking one's hands in a searing hot magical forge to help in the creation of an artifact. In fact compared to that the skill uses below (though admittedly having large DC's) seem downright tame to the point of well almost being ordinary uses against bigger things. So I'm hoping someone can provide examples of the types of things being cited here as inherent to 4e epic tier and not just how a particular DM chooses to run their game at epic tier.

[sblock]Common Cause
The aspect grieves for your troubles, but his own loyalty to
Bahamut blinds him to your true purpose.
Level: 28 (XP 26,000)
Complexity: 1 (requires 4 successes before 3 failures).

Primary Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Religion, special
Secondary Skill: Insight
Special: If the characters defeated Dispater and
show his head or his rod as proof of the dragon’s
corruption, the characters automatically earn 2 successes.
(2 successes, maximum 2 successes)

Arcana (DC 31): The character tries to unravel
the enchantment beguiling the aspect. This skill
cannot be used unless a successful Insight check has
ben made (see below). Up to four characters can aid
on this check. This skill can earn a maximum of 2
successes.

Bluff (DC 30): The character fabricates evidence
against Dakranad. In addition to counting as two failures,
a failed check counts as two failures, closes off
future Bluff checks, and each new attempt results in
1 more automatic failure. This skill can earn a maximum
of 4 successes.

Diplomacy (DC 26): The character cites truthful
evidence about Dakranad’s corruption or recounts
the party’s past alliance with the Platinum Dragon.
This skill can earn a maximum of 4 successes.

Insight (DC 31): The character identifies that
the aspect of Moradin has been ensorcelled by the
mithral dragon. A successful check counts as 0 successes
but opens up use of the Arcana skill.

Religion (DC 17): The character recalls Moradin’s
character and shows how the aspect’s actions are
at odds with the god’s nature. This skill can earn a
maximum of 1 success.

Success: The characters break the enchantment
and the aspect of Moradin realizes that the mithral
dragon tricked him. Enraged by this, he urges the
characters to venture to Bahamut’s Palace (if the
characters haven’t yet been there) or to the Bridge
of al-Sihal (if the characters have already been to
Bahamut’s Palace). Alternatively, if Amyria is still
with the characters, the aspect gives them the creation
spark and advises them to seek the Bridge of
al-Sihal to witness Bahamut’s imminent return.

Failure: The aspect of Moradin believes the
characters are trying to trick him. He commands his
servants to attack.[/sblock]

pemerton said:

How many rounds does it take for artificers to grasp a magic hammer with their tools so that they can start working it?

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Who knows. At this point I'd need to have the whole narrative in front of me, running it with players. Presumably we (myself and the players) know how long it is going to take so that the fighter knows to risk reaching in and grabbing hold of the magic hammer for the artificers to finish their work. Maybe it would be a roll with each level that they beat lowering the number of rounds required. A good roll might lead to only 2 rounds for them to finish, a poor one might be 4. This is one of those things that would figure itself out organically while playing the game.

Edit: Actually, at the point, it might only be one round no matter what rolls are. It would be the final phase of crafting, something went wrong and to save the artifact, the fighter plunges his hands into the forge to hold the hammer steady letting the artificers finish their work.

Jester David said:

But codification limited options. It reduces player choice from “whatever you could imagine” to “whatever feats/powers you have”.

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Codified frameworks of the sort that have been a focus of discussion for the past many pages of this thread - in 4e, taking the form of a DC-by-level chart that feeds into a skill challenge system - don't limit options or reduce player choice.

I personally don't think this is a very plausible claim for combat-type powers either, provided there is - as there is in 4e - a robust improvisation framework that builds on the DC-by-level chart. And to look at it another way, I've read many many discussions of "creative spellcasting" but have very rarely seen it argued that D&D would be better if (in lieu of spells) it adopted some version of the Ars Magic approach to casting.

Sadras said:

@pemerton and in part @Hussar

You have pushed for the merits of a defined skill table at various levels and/or mentioned 5e DM's giving varying DCs on skill checks as issues of the game.
I'm wondering if you have the same contempt, because it can only be described as contempt after so many posts, with TotM. Let us face it TotM can produce some varied results, not all DMs will have the exact same picture in their mind and certainly players will have different ones.
I'm wondering if you are consistent in your contempt for unsurety across the board or if you're just cherry-picking?

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I find it bizarre that a view of the merits of A over B, maintined against others who disagree, counts as contempt! How would I show non-contempt? By changing my mind? So it's contemptuous to disagree with you (and others)?

As [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] pointed out, this is a 4e thread in the pre-5e editions sub-forum - I don't see how it's remotely contemptuous for posters to explain why certain features of 4e, which are absent from 5e, appeal to them.

I also have no idea why you fasten on "unsurety" as an issue. I am the one who quoted the passage upthread, from LostSoul, about the table-specific manner in which colour is established in 4e. As far as I can tell [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and I are the only posters in this thread who regularly play non-D&D systems (like MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, Prince Valiant, and the like) that use conflict resolution mechanics that proceed as a 4e skill challenge does - first, establish feasibility in the fiction, then use the system framework to set a difficulty.

As far as theatre of the mind is concerned, whatever floats your boat. In AD&D I don't bother tracking precise distances because they don't matter - there is no tracking of in-melee movement in AD&D, so the only question is whether someone is close enough to shoot or close enough to be engaged in melee. Rolemaster is similar in this respect. In 4e I generally use a map because the system calls for it (it cares a great deal about precise positioning in melee and invovles a great deal of in-melee movement) but not always if it is not in issue or can (in virtue of the situation, eg some chases and some geographic circumsntaces) be tracked just by bands or simple notes.

Instead of imputing views that have no connection to the ones I'm actually articulating, I'd encourage you to consider why someone might like closed scene resolution in a RPG. If 4e is too contentious to take as the object of the study, consider HeroWars/Quest or MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, or the free-to-download lite version of Maelstrom Storytelling, Story Bones.

Imaro said:

Good point... are there any official 4e Epic adventures where something like the forge example @pemerton gave is a part of an official skill challenge or check? I was glancing through an epic tier adventure from Dungeon called "Those Once Loyal" and the skill challenges and checks I saw seemed pretty mundane (with the epicness seeming to come from the opposition as opposed to the capabilities of the PC's). I've included one below but I have to say none of the suggested uses of skills comes close to sticking one's hands in a searing hot magical forge to help in the creation of an artifact. In fact compared to that the skill uses below (though admittedly having large DC's) seem downright tame to the point of well almost being ordinary uses against bigger things. So I'm hoping someone can provide examples of the types of things being cited here as inherent to 4e epic tier and not just how a particular DM chooses to run their game at epic tier.

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I dont know how typical your example of a skill challenge is but for many Fighters the chances of adding a success look pretty grim with the given examples of skills to use. Given that you need to hit between high 20s to low 30s for a success the player needs to come up with a narrative way they can swing an Athletics or Survival check into convincing the Aspect of Moradin to help.