D&D 4E A gathering of Martial Controllers - what do you think

AbdulAlhazred said:

Do you need it? Hide is really a pretty good choice for a PHB1 Weapon Master set up to wield a light blade and shield (STR/DEX build). I mean, yes, it might widen the applicability somewhat, but then again it might actually make Scale armor obsolete! lol.

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I am not sure, I actually intend it to be the same as scale or of negligible difference, I want to have varied stats that do not have to pump hugely into a particular secondary one of the rarely mentioned benefits of heavy armor. I seem to recall the optimization crew going for plate for fighters not scale. Additionally can't that Rogue easily have better than the above with his primary attribute using hide and an offhand defensive dagger with his rapier?

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] The volley fire ability used to create a wall... reminds me very much of a Warlord

Garthanos said:

I am not sure, I actually intend it to be the same as scale or of negligible difference, I want to have varied stats that do not have to pump hugely into a particular secondary one of the rarely mentioned benefits of heavy armor. I seem to recall the optimization crew going for plate for fighters not scale. Additionally can't that Rogue easily have better than the above with his primary attribute using hide and an offhand defensive dagger with his rapier?

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Hide has some check penalties that Rogues probably don't like, which is supposed to keep them in leather. At that point things like TWD, defensive dagger/parrying dagger/spiked shield can provide an equivalent AC (though obviously you still get something by moving to hide, except it requires a feat, which I'm pretty sure works out that you don't really come out ahead). I'm sure [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] could shed more light on the exact details of all that....

I don't recall plate being especially attractive to fighters actually. You will get a point of AC, but again at the cost of a feat, and with scale you can pick up an ancillary benefit to another defense instead, which largely makes up for the point of AC anyway. I'm sure there are some fighter builds where plate is a good choice, but they aren't the most common ones AFAIK. IMHO plate armor was basically designed to be a sort of stealth class feature for paladins, though its not really one that gives them a distinct advantage per-se. Its more of the 'fighters are gritty warriors, paladins are shiny knights!' sort of optics. Truly 4e seems to go far out of its way with these little mechanical subtleties to create flavor without actually just plain coming out and laying its cards on the table. Never was a fan of that aspect of the game...

Basically, Defenders ought to have level+17 AC, non-Defenders level+15. +/- 1 depending on focus with some having +/- 2 such as Paladins or default Wizards or 20 stat PCs with an offhand weapon of +1 to AC. Etc...

So if you're thinking someone is a Martial Controller, they probably ought to have a 16 AC at 1st level. This is a point to watch out for similar to Rangers - a Str/Wis or Str/Dex Ranger often defaults to 16 base while a Dex/X Ranger can easily default to 18. So if you have Martial Controller capable of putting a primary stat into Dex, be wary of giving the PC Hide simply because that sounds right - you might want to give the melee Controller a way to boost their AC slightly, such as Hafted Defense or Two-Weapon Defense for free or use say Wisdom for AC - rather than give an easy way for the Dex-based one to easily hit AC 20 - how Barbarians really have Dex as their secondary stat and Con or Cha as their tertiary, even though PHB 3 thinks Con or Cha are Secondary...

AbdulAlhazred said:

Hide has some check penalties that Rogues probably don't like, which is supposed to keep them in leather. At that point things like TWD, defensive dagger/parrying dagger/spiked shield can provide an equivalent AC (though obviously you still get something by moving to hide, except it requires a feat, which I'm pretty sure works out that you don't really come out ahead).

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Yes I noticed the feat involved -Plate and Hide are serving analagous top ends with debateable value versus their restriction. The value of a Defender having super high armor class is also debate worth given the goal of getting the enemy to target them so that might be the best argument against needing compensation for less armor, additionally the likeihood of needing improved initiative feats goes down when the dex secondary of the fighter gets pushed.

The difference between a primary versus secondary stat is what I took to shows the Fighter is taking an inferior armor to the rogue when he drops to light armor, how inferior? If I build my secondary stat up to be like the rogue is using as his primary... then the fighter looks to me likely to lose to hit AND or tertiary defenses due to stat issues.

Ie if they move to hide they are paying a big price and I think are missing an advantage meant for defenders. (Because the defender will get attacked more often ) although perhaps that is an assumption and its supposed to be covered by more healing surges.

AbdulAlhazred said:

I'm sure [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] could shed more light on the exact details of all that....

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Indeed.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Truly 4e seems to go far out of its way with these little mechanical subtleties to create flavor without actually just plain coming out and laying its cards on the table. Never was a fan of that aspect of the game...

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Sneaky little dickens... yes also there could be throw back flavor involved in 1e the Fighter didnt start with plate because he couldnt afford it although it was hands down better.

Having a feat cost on it encourages picking it up later even if you do not care about the encumbering effects.

MwaO said:

Basically, Defenders ought to have level+17 AC, non-Defenders level+15. +/- 1 depending on focus with some having +/- 2 such as Paladins or default Wizards or 20 stat PCs with an offhand weapon of +1 to AC. Etc...

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That is where the +2 compensation for the Berserk being a light armor Defender (and losing the benefit when role is switched)

MwaO said:

So if you have Martial Controller capable of putting a primary stat into Dex, be wary of giving the PC Hide simply because that sounds right - you might want to give the melee Controller a way to boost their AC slightly, such as Hafted Defense or Two-Weapon Defense for free or use say Wisdom for AC - rather than give an easy way for the Dex-based one to easily hit AC 20 - how Barbarians really have Dex as their secondary stat and Con or Cha as their tertiary, even though PHB 3 thinks Con or Cha are Secondary...

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There you go being on topic again but yes the idea I was presenting was definitely for a defender Fighter and should not be for the controller idea Tony's controller I think I noticed definitely could be Dex primary out of the box.

Garthanos said:

That is where the +2 compensation for the Berserk being a light armor Defender (and losing the benefit when role is switched)

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Exactly right

I don't have anything to add to this discussion except to wonder what collective noun to apply to such a group.

Maybe a 'Stratagem' of Martial Controllers?

Cleon said:

I don't have anything to add to this discussion except to wonder what collective noun to apply to such a group.

Maybe a 'Stratagem' of Martial Controllers?

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I like ANNIHILATING game terminology vs adding to it. This is why HoML flattened item, feat, PP, ED, and Theme into 'boon'. While distinctions have power, universality also has power. While I haven't ever quite reached satisfaction in this area, I am definitely still trying to also flatten the terminology related to things that aren't regulated by slots. 4e called these things 'consumables', 'rituals', and in a few cases other niche things (you could argue that treasure fell somewhat into this category depending on how rigid your approach to the rewards system was). The niche stuff will probably always exist, but at least there's some interchange, a currency that exists, between these things (IE you can buy a scroll or a ritual formula, or an alchemical item, or buy/make a potion and go back and forth between these things). My idea is to make them all some sort of 'procedures' or something, and merge that together with other 'tricks' that I've thought of calling 'techniques'. However, I would call a +2 permanent bonus to a defense out as a 'boon', or at least an element of a boon.