D&D 5E Different Paths: Shadow Dancer Rogue

Esker · Jul 12, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
With Shadow Double I was thinking more Mirror Image, not a clone. Although now that you say that...

Oh, it was [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] who suggested the clone thing. I misread.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 12, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Food for thought. The Bladesong model has a raft of smaller bonuses packed into it at 2nd, and then 3 big abilities at 6/10/14 and it works on a 2/rest model with a 1m duration. I think that is a strong way to model what we're doing, we just need to figure out how to package it. What that doesn't get the archetype is always on mods, so it's give and take. 2/rest is almost every encounter though, so assuming a standard work day maybe it's fine.

A thing to recall there is that wizard traditions tend to be a bit smaller than rogue archetypes in spite of coming in sooner. Either way, though, I think we are on a good track with Shadow Dance. If it can’t fit a small passive bonus, it’s not the end of the world, but Bladesinger does get light armor and some weapon proficiencies.

Dausuul said:
I love this idea, since I also prefer rogues to monks but like the shadow theme. Here's how I might go at it:

Flicker of Shadow. At 3rd level, as a bonus action when in dim light or darkness, you can turn yourself and any objects you are carrying into shadow. While in this form, you can pass through gaps as small as 1 inch wide without squeezing, you can hide anywhere, and you do not suffer disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks for moving more than half your speed.

This effect lasts until the end of your turn or until you enter an area of bright light.

Dark Sight. At 3rd level, you gain darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision, its range increases by 30 feet.

Thief of Light. At 9th level, as an action, you can steal the light from all light sources (including magical ones) within 60 feet. They are extinguished and cannot be relit while you hold the stolen light in your fist. You must have a free hand to use this ability.

As an action while holding the light, you can release it in a blinding flash. Each creature within 20 feet that can see you must make a Constitution saving throw against a DC of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. A creature that fails its saving throw is blinded until the end of your next turn.

After you release the light, or after 1 minute, the light sources are rekindled and return to normal.

Shadow Killer. At 13th level, you can kill your enemies through their shadows. When you are within 30 feet of a creature, if there is a light source on the other side of that creature, you can attack the creature's shadow with a melee weapon as if you were attacking the creature itself. The target takes damage normally from this attack.

One With Darkness. At 17th level, when you use Flicker of Shadow, the effect lasts until you use a bonus action to end it or until you enter an area of bright light.

Probably needs a couple of those to be non combat, but otherwise there is good stuff there. I wonder how much can be combcined with the Shadow Dance as a state you enter 2/SR idea.

Fenris-77 · Jul 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
A thing to recall there is that wizard traditions tend to be a bit smaller than rogue archetypes in spite of coming in sooner. Either way, though, I think we are on a good track with Shadow Dance. If it can’t fit a small passive bonus, it’s not the end of the world, but Bladesinger does get light armor and some weapon proficiencies.

My thought was to take that model and build it up a little to counter the whole, you know, you aren't also a full caster thing. I just thought the model made great sense and had some cool flavor and still had room for pretty much everything we wanted. We want to dance, they made a dance, it all made sense at the time.

It's not your standard archetype anyway.

Dausuul · Jul 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Probably needs a couple of those to be non combat, but otherwise there is good stuff there.

Flicker of Shadow is almost entirely noncombat. It lets you slide through keyholes*, and dart unseen from one place of concealment to the next. That's its purpose. Its combat use is severely constrained by the fact that it ends on the same turn you use it, and it costs your bonus action, so you can't do any Cunning Action tricks.

The only way I can think of to use it in combat is if you start your turn already hidden; then you could Flicker to let you close to melee range before revealing yourself. Handy, I guess, but you could do just as well with a crossbow, and then you'd have your bonus action to hide again.

[size=-2]*Large keyholes. Okay, maybe not keyholes. An ill-fitted door? 1-inch gaps are actually not as common as they seem at first.[/size]

doctorbadwolf · Jul 12, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
My thought was to take that model and build it up a little to counter the whole, you know, you aren't also a full caster thing. I just thought the model made great sense and had some cool flavor and still had room for pretty much everything we wanted. We want to dance, they made a dance, it all made sense at the time. It's not your standard archetype anyway.

I agree completely!

Dausuul said:
Flicker of Shadow is almost entirely noncombat. It lets you slide through keyholes*, and dart unseen from one place of concealment to the next. That's its purpose. Its combat use is severely constrained by the fact that it ends on the same turn you use it, and it costs your bonus action, so you can't do any Cunning Action tricks.

The only way I can think of to use it in combat is if you start your turn already hidden; then you could Flicker to let you close to melee range before revealing yourself. Handy, I guess, but you could do just as well with a crossbow, and then you'd have your bonus action to hide again.

[SIZE=-2]*Large keyholes. Okay, maybe not keyholes. An ill-fitted door? 1-inch gaps are actually not as common as they seem at first.[/SIZE]

Ah! I missed the action economy of it. I’d say the opposite then, that it would have some use in combat. But regardless, one of the middle features should be noncombat to conform to normal framing.

Fenris-77 · Jul 12, 2019

The shadow scrying fits the bill as the non-combat ability. A version of that could slide in at 13th, with the teleport/flicker movement thing at 9th, and then a capstone at 19.

Another way we could fold defense into the 3rd level package is to allow dodge as a bonus action (which I cribbed form the monk, obviously). We've been talking about defense and that's pretty strong. If we keep that in competition with the cunning action actions we run less of a risk of over-powering the build too. It also stacks with Uncanny Dodge which is cool. Defense without modding AC makes it feel different than a lot of other builds.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 12, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
The shadow scrying fits the bill as the non-combat ability. A version of that could slide in at 13th, with the teleport/flicker movement thing at 9th, and then a capstone at 19.

Another way we could fold defense into the 3rd level package is to allow dodge as a bonus action (which I cribbed form the monk, obviously). We've been talking about defense and that's pretty strong. If we keep that in competition with the cunning action actions we run less of a risk of over-powering the build too. It also stacks with Uncanny Dodge which is cool. Defense without modding AC makes it feel different than a lot of other builds.

Very cool. I think you’re spot on.

So, 3rd Level is a small movement increase in dim light or darkness, and 2/SR Shadow Dance, which comes with a flat movement increase, jump using Dex score, and what else?

edit, oh right, Dodge as a Bonus Action: While in Shadow Dance, or even when not?

Fenris-77 · Jul 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Very cool. I think you’re spot on.

So, 3rd Level is a small movement increase in dim light or darkness, and 2/SR Shadow Dance, which comes with a flat movement increase, jump using Dex score, and what else?

edit, oh right, Dodge as a Bonus Action: While in Shadow Dance, or even when not?

I was initially thinking while Dancing. The same ability costs the monk a ki point per use, so I felt that it should be limited somehow. If the dance is 2/SR and a minute duration that covers all six encounters in a standard day. What's missing there is out of combat utility, although that could be where the other three abilties play in. Something to ponder. I have some more ideas, but no time. I'll jump back on later with an idea for the capstone.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 12, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I was initially thinking while Dancing. The same ability costs the monk a ki point per use, so I felt that it should be limited somehow. If the dance is 2/SR and a minute duration that covers all six encounters in a standard day. What's missing there is out of combat utility, although that could be where the other three abilties play in. Something to ponder. I have some more ideas, but no time. I'll jump back on later with an idea for the capstone.

Great points. I’d say that +5 speed in shadow and training performance give good out of combat always on utility at level 3, and won’t overpower the subclass compared to Swashbuckler or Arcane trickster.

Fenris-77 · Jul 14, 2019

OK, let's sum up and see where we are here:

Lvl 3 two minor abilities; +5 mv in shadows and proficiency in Performance; and Shadow Dance
Shadow dance has the following rules:
1. may be invoked 2/SR and has a duration of 1 minute, the following rules also apply when in areas of dim light, shadow and darkness
2. The SD may use dodge as a bonus action
3. The SD gets advantage on Athletics and Acrobatics rolls
4. The SD does not provoke attacks of opportunity when she moves (perhaps this needs to be qualified somehow...)
5. The SD may use backstab on her first attack of a combat after beginning her dance without needing to fulfill the normal conditions of the backstab rules

I feel like this is still very beta. I like the rules but it also doesn't really feel that different from the other shadow archetypes. Maybe fluff text could change that. There also might be one component too many, IDK.

At level 9 I think we should do something with a Shadow Teleport or that neat Flickering Shadows rule from upstream.

At level 13 I guess we're still looking at tenebration. This has the potential to very cool, we just need the right parameters and exact rules.

And then we need a capstone for level 17. I had a thought that after two non-dance abilities, it might be cool to go back to shadow dance for the capstone. One idea I had was to build on the shadow dodgy hard to hit feel of the dance. What if we stole some ideas from the Monk's deflect missles power but put it to work on melee attacks. Something like this: on a performance check DC 20 (or 25) a melee attack that misses the SD, or is dodged using either dodge or uncanny dodge, may be redirected to another foe within 5'. If the performance check is successful the attack automatically hits the new target.

The other things we've talked about that could be worked into a capstone are shadow doubles of some kind (either mirror image or clone flavoured) or shadow manipulation of some kind - making items of weapons out of raw shadow (Shadowblade?). If we wanted I feel like the shadow blade thing could be worked into a neat ability earlier in the progression, maybe instead of the tenebration?