D&D 5E Is this power gamey?

Tony Vargas · Sep 18, 2015

5e neatly side-steps these sorts of concerns. Your DM is meant to rule how that combination of race & class abilities will work, 'RAW' notwithstanding, and it will also be the responsibility of your DM to assure that, whatever the ruling, it doesn't get in the way of the campaign delivering the intended experience to all players.

keterys · Sep 18, 2015

Majoru Oakheart said:
Is it the most powerful combo in the game? No.

It's even on the weak end for druids.

The critical takeaway is that you don't like the 5e druid's wildshape. Which is totally fine. It has a potentially game warping effect, particularly at 2nd and 3rd level (and, like, 20th).

It is also my interpretation that you're taking out that dislike of the druid's wildshape power, and possibly even that particular player's preferred method of playing D&D, on the half-orc side of the equation. Which is misguided. Once a day being able to avoid some damage is negligible compared to getting 5x the hp of other characters, per short rest, at 2nd level. It's also negligible compared to a host of other effective options, especially long term.

So, again, I don't see a point to denying the half-orc ability. I do encourage you to talk to the player and explain that the druid is being a problem at the table, so please play some other class. Or even discuss with the table alternative means of handling the druid that don't offend quite as much.

Or just play slightly higher level D&D, when the druid's wildshape rapidly turns meh. That's basically what happened at the last couple tables I saw. Crazy at very low level, the DM having to work with the shapeshift druid so they weren't so darn ineffective at higher level.

FormerlyHemlock · Sep 18, 2015

Green1 said:
Mechanics and theorycrafting aside, min/maxing a character is not "powergamery".

Powergamers would roll max level with all the best weapons and armor and go stomp something like the latest module. Perfectly okay. But, in DnD circles, never understood the stigma with wanting power romps.

IMO, powergamers are more likely to want to run with min level than max level. (C.f. "How to kill the Tarrasque with a 5th level wizard".) Powergamers are those who enjoy the challenge of optimization, and 5E is so easy that the only way to get real powergaming satisfaction is to do something crazy like take on Orcus at level 7, which actually is a challenge and probably gets you dead.

FormerlyHemlock · Sep 18, 2015

keterys said:
Or just play slightly higher level D&D, when the druid's wildshape rapidly turns meh. That's basically what happened at the last couple tables I saw. Crazy at very low level, the DM having to work with the shapeshift druid so they weren't so darn ineffective at higher level.

To be fair, the shapeshifting druid is only ineffective if you're married to the idea of shapeshifting as your sole modus operandi. If you're willing to focus more on spellcasting (Call Lightning, Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, etc.) from e.g. levels 5 to 9, until elemental shape comes online at level 10, your druid will be fun and powerful for his whole career. He just has an odd trajectory.

Li Shenron · Sep 18, 2015

evilives said:
I see Relentless Endurance as an interrupt (for lack of a better word) based on this wording: "you can drop to 1 hit point instead." The feature gives you a choice: go to 0 hit points like you were going to or use the feature and go to 1 hit point instead. For me, the wording of the half-orc feature puts the continuation of Wild Shape in limbo until the player decides whether or not to use that feature.

Personally I would probably not let Relentless Endurance apply in this case since you aren't really dropping to 0hp, you are just losing all hp of your wildshape form and revert to normal form, without dropping unconscious. The wildshape form just ends, like a spell expiring.

But it's not a problem to rule that wildshape is more natural than magic, and so an ability to "endure" physical wounds would help you stay longer in wildshape.

It's only the part about leftover damage which makes me favor the first interpretation (i.e. disallow Relentless Endurance). When you really drop below 0hp you ignore excess damage beyond the part that takes you down to 0 (except that you may need to check for instant death from massive damage, but if that's not the case, then it doesn't matter if damage would take you to -1 or -10, in 5e you just default to 0hp).

However in wildshape the excess damage does matter, it is not ignored but subtracted from your original form's hp. Relentless Endurance would then also negate any excess damage.

Example:
- you have 100hp + 1 wildshape hp left
- you take 100hp damage
- normally you lose wildshape and drop to 1hp
- with Relentless Endurance, you keep wildshape and still have 100hp+1hp

It's only 1/day however, so it's not a big deal if you let it happen. Or alternatively, you could rule that Relentless Endurance holds your wildshape but at the same time it drops you to 0hp+1hp, meaning that you drop unconscious as soon as your wildshape ends.

keterys · Sep 18, 2015

Hemlock said:
To be fair, the shapeshifting druid is only ineffective if you're married to the idea of shapeshifting as your sole modus operandi. If you're willing to focus more on spellcasting (Call Lightning, Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, etc.) from e.g. levels 5 to 9, until elemental shape comes online at level 10, your druid will be fun and powerful for his whole career. He just has an odd trajectory.

Yep, if you stop shapeshifting for several levels (since you're more likely to lose concentration if you go into melee and are less equipped for spellcasting), you stay reasonable. Of the 3 druids I've seen, none have been willing to make that step, so they'd do a spell (or not), then lose it rapidly.

Elemental form is certainly cool, but costing 2 shifts makes the druid really want to short rest a lot, and that can also be problematic.

Overall, I'd say the failed scaling of the moon druid is one of the bigger blemishes in 5e.

Uchawi · Sep 18, 2015

Every version of D&D allows for DM fiat and final rulings. So I would approach it from the RAW perspective and then discuss it with your DM if he or she comes up with an entirely different interpretation. The rules are the basis for any discussion and without them it is a free for all. With that stated I do not see it as power gaming as long as you role-play the concept.

FormerlyHemlock · Sep 18, 2015

keterys said:
Yep, if you stop shapeshifting for several levels (since you're more likely to lose concentration if you go into melee and are less equipped for spellcasting), you stay reasonable. Of the 3 druids I've seen, none have been willing to make that step, so they'd do a spell (or not), then lose it rapidly.

Elemental form is certainly cool, but costing 2 shifts makes the druid really want to short rest a lot, and that can also be problematic.

Overall, I'd say the failed scaling of the moon druid is one of the bigger blemishes in 5e.

You don't have to stop shapeshifting at the middle levels, you just can't use spells and shapeshifting simultaneously. There's nothing wrong with becoming a Giant Constrictor Snake to restrain an enemy, or a Polar Bear to exploit your "free" HP and save on resources. There's also nothing wrong with casting Pass Without Trace and using your shapeshifting abilities to scout around, especially once you get flying at 8th level. Even if you do want to spellcast and shapeshift simultaneously, the aforementioned AC 15 Giant Hyena has a +2 to Con saves, to which you can add another +3 if you take Resilient (Con) at level 4, thus passing 80% of your Concentration checks. While those are not great odds on concentration, they're not terrible either--by the time you lose concentration you've probably lost most of your hyena HP too. If you wanted to do something cheap like cast Entangle + shift into Giant Hyena form, you could do that without regret. If you lose the Entangle on round 3, oh well.

It doesn't look like failed scaling to me.

keterys · Sep 18, 2015

Hemlock said:
It doesn't look like failed scaling to me.

*eyes 2nd level moon druids, raises an eyebrow*

The moon druid drastically changing how they play every few levels isn't an intentional feature here, even if you can spackle over it.

I'm also referring to things like the moon druid ending up 3-6 to hit worse than the rest of the party depending on the level and magic item level.

I've seen a _ton_ of complaints on forums, and also witnessed 3 different groups go through a similar "WTF" process with the druid, as it leveled. Many more than I've seen for Ranger, which they're apparently willing to do surgery on. Weirdly, for what I think many moon druids want, a patch that let Rangers shapeshift sorta might have actually worked better. Being a full caster is, in theory, highly limiting on what you can get, so if you primarily want to be a big bear or wolf or whatever, you're setup for disappointment.

FormerlyHemlock · Sep 18, 2015

keterys said:
*eyes 2nd level moon druids, raises an eyebrow*

2nd level is weird and disproportionately strong, yes. But by "failed scaling" I thought you were referring to your experience of shapeshifting petering out over time.

If you think moon druid is brokenly good at 2nd through 4th levels, I don't disagree.

The moon druid drastically changing how they play every few levels isn't an intentional feature here, even if you can spackle over it.

Well, that's an opinion. When it comes to D&D though, Death of the Author works for me here: Moon Druid looks to me like it's built for versatility, and versatility is what it does quite well at levels 2 through 20. You think that's a mistake, but so what? It works.

No "spackling" required.

I'm also referring to things like the moon druid ending up 3-6 to hit worse than the rest of the party depending on the level and magic item level.

I've seen a _ton_ of complaints on forums, and also witnessed 3 different groups go through a similar "WTF" process with the druid, as it leveled. Many more than I've seen for Ranger, which they're apparently willing to do surgery on. Weirdly, for what I think many moon druids want, a patch that let Rangers shapeshift sorta might have actually worked better. Being a full caster is, in theory, highly limiting on what you can get, so if you primarily want to be a big bear or wolf or whatever, you're setup for disappointment.

Winding up "3-6 to hit worse" doesn't concern me. A 20th level wizard may have +11 to hit with his 4d8 Chill Touch Cantrip, whereas the Moon Druid has +11 at 4d6 for Produce Flame and/or +8 at 2d8+5 x2 as an Earth or Air Elemental. Produce Flame works just fine as a cantrip, and against most enemies 28 points of damage (elemental) at +8 is better than 18 points of damage (Chill Touch) at +11 anyway, not to mention the extra HP aspect. And the druid is still a spellcaster.

Argumentum ad populum doesn't impress me. "A ton of complaints" on forums concerns me only to the extent that the content of those complaints is valid. Most complaints I've seen about the Moon Druid are from people who don't really want to play a Moon Druid--they want to play a shapeshifter--just as most complaints about the Necromancer are from those who don't really want to play a 5E Necromancer--they want to play a Necromancer (Wizard) more than a (Necromancer) Wizard, which is what 5E actually has. E.g. lots and lots of necrotic and undead-related abilities to the exclusion of things like Contingency and Scrying. It's a valid desire but not a valid complaint about the Moon Druid or Necromancer.

The Moon Druid is not a failure. He works perfectly well as what he is, and whenever I roll a mediocre-stats (N)PC with 11, 10, 13, 11, 12, 10 the Moon Druid is my go-to class for making that guy awesome anyway.