D&D 5E The New Tiers Ranked

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]

I think you are placing some paper thing margins between tiers based on slight power differences in subclasses. What's the difference between a tier 2 divination wizard and any other tier 2 wizard? Basically 2 divination dice? Is that really all it takes to go from tier 2 to tier 1? Or consider a tempest cleric vs a light cleric. Is there really a tier worth of difference there?

Also, it seems you are rating the combat pillar more like 50% and the other 2 pillars more like 25% each. That's my general impression anyways.

Mort · Mar 9, 2019

FrogReaver said:
[MENTION=6716779]
Also, it seems you are rating the combat pillar more like 50% and the other 2 pillars more like 25% each. That's my general impression anyways.

That does seem accurate.

And in which case I don't see how Tempest cleric isn't also Tier one in the heroic (1-4) levels.

No other class can drop a 24 damage AoE at range at 3rd level- sure it's once a long rest, but that's major. [Edit: as was pointed out down thread, it's a short rest recharge. Making the ability useful more often and therefore that much better.]

Add to that an ability that does an automatic 2d8 damage as a reaction, by 1st level, likely 3 times every long rest.

And if that's not enough, heavy armor and martial weapons.

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

Mort said:
That does seem accurate.

And in which case I don't see how Tempest cleric isn't also Tier one in the heroic (1-4) levels.

No other class can drop a 24 damage AoE at range at 3rd level- sure it's once a long rest, but that's major.

Add to that an ability that does an automatic 2d8 damage as a reaction, by 1st level, likely 3 times every long rest.

And if that's not enough, heavy armor and martial weapons.

Yea tier 1 tempest vs light is a very close comparison. Throwing out 2 shatters per day for 24 total area damage each is very nice. (Channel divinity is short rest recharge)

That said a light cleric laying down a spiritual weapon and using radiance of dawn on turn 1 is pretty spectacular as well.

I actually rate the tempest level 1 ability higher as by RAW you can't use the light cleric level 1 ability after the attack is rolled (that's not how disadvantage works) and so you can't use it to turn hits into misses, only to try to lower an enemies chance to hit you in the first place (which is pretty low anyways). If the light clerics level 1 disadvantage ability can be used after the first attack is rolled then I'd rate light cleric above tempest. But without that being the case I consider tempest a little better. (in tier 1)

Zardnaar · Mar 9, 2019

Reason I put the light cleric higher is radiant dawn is in addition to spells and a massive AoE. Tempest cleric can nova sure but is still gonna run out of spells fast.

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Reason I put the light cleric higher is radiant dawn is in addition to spells and a massive AoE. Tempest cleric can nova sure but is still gonna run out of spells fast.

The difference is that 1 max damage shatter is an encounter ender in heroic tier against all but solo enemies. Radiant Dawn is only an encounter ender on tons of small enemies.

Going back to my truism... damage now > damage later and tempest throws around a lot more damage now than light does in tier 1.

I think you are weighting potential to run out of resources much higher than I am. I don't care if Tempest runs out of resources faster as long as he can strike twice as hard when needed (typically turn 1). Besides, Tempest arguably won't run out faster, he will just refrain from using resources until really needed.

I also think you underestimate the value of a reaction that does 2d8 save for half in tier 1 especially compared with the not so good disadvantage granting ability (at least going by the way a number of us play it).

Keep in mind the argument isn't that tempest is necessarily better than light, just that the margin between them is so thin that the different tier rankings make little sense.

guachi · Mar 9, 2019

I think your ratings are more like 50/25/25 Combat/Social/Exploration. Frankly, I think it's better than 40/30/30.

It's not just that combat takes up, generally, more of the game and the rules, it's that player choice and not abilities matter more in the Social and Exploration pillars. At least they do in my game.

I generally agree with your ratings. I haven't seen every class/subclass combination in play but you are accurate in your assessment of the Battle Master at levels 3 & 4 in the Heroic tier. If you get your two short rests they are absurdly good in combat.

At level 1 and 2 you are just a fighter, but you are really good in the brief time you are at level 1 (one or two sessions?). A fighting style and Second Wind are great. You get a fighting bonus before the other martial classes and Second Wind is free self-healing and saves precious spell slots from casters.

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

One fascinating thing is that if you change up the encounter pacing just a little in 5e. Say 4 hard encounters with 1 short rest. Then the tiers would likely totally change

Zardnaar · Mar 9, 2019

Krachek said:
Tier 2 is incomplete.
Where are the SorLock, Sorcadin?
Theses terms are so common that they are classes by themselves.

I excluded multclass builds. I do mention it in passing on some classes.

Zardnaar · Mar 9, 2019

FrogReaver said:
One fascinating thing is that if you change up the encounter pacing just a little in 5e. Say 4 hard encounters with 1 short rest. Then the tiers would likely totally change

It's not to different to my 6ish encounters I put in the OP. Tiers wouldn't change to much light and tempest might swap places warlocks still decent with 1 short rest, a lot of classes have nova abilities.

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

guachi said:
I think your ratings are more like 50/25/25 Combat/Social/Exploration. Frankly, I think it's better than 40/30/30.

It's not just that combat takes up, generally, more of the game and the rules, it's that player choice and not abilities matter more in the Social and Exploration pillars. At least they do in my game.

I generally agree with your ratings. I haven't seen every class/subclass combination in play but you are accurate in your assessment of the Battle Master at levels 3 & 4 in the Heroic tier. If you get your two short rests they are absurdly good in combat.

At level 1 and 2 you are just a fighter, but you are really good in the brief time you are at level 1 (one or two sessions?). A fighting style and Second Wind are great. You get a fighting bonus before the other martial classes and Second Wind is free self-healing and saves precious spell slots from casters.

You know, thinking about it that way I think I agree.

The only PC's that get real social and exploration abilities to me in tier 1 are the lore bard (exptertise + cutting words stacks exceptionally well + rituals like comprehend languages), druids (wildshape is great for exploration and pass without trace), warlocks (rituals or super familiar and ability to communicate with your mind) and wizards (rituals and dual purpose spells like levitate and suggestion), trickery clerics (pass without trace + advantage to an ally on stealth rolls), arcane trickster (expertise and can take a familiar), Eldritch Knight (find familiar).

I think that pretty much covers the tier 1 PC's with useful social/exploration abilities. I guess for alot of classes it really depends on how useful you find your familiar to be for exploration.

I guess the classes I would hold up as best of the best standout classes are lore bards, druids, trickery clerics, warlocks and wizards. I don't think rogues or fighters get enough tier 1 for exploration. I can't think of any other class I would highly rate in exploration for tier 1.

I don't know that any of those classes (except lore bard) are good enough at something to really score super high on the exploration or social pillars.

D&D 5E The New Tiers Ranked

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Mort

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Zardnaar

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

guachi

Hero

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Zardnaar

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

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