'Cure Wounds' is D&D's Most Popular Spell

Staffan · Apr 18, 2019

ad_hoc said:
At the end of the day Eldritch Blast is just a cantrip. Doing some extra damage with it isn't going to greatly impact the character's effectiveness. Their spells are what is important in combat. Invocations are very helpful to round them out.

Bumping the party's damage up by a few points when it is time to cast cantrips just isn't a big deal.

The way I see it, eldritch blast + Agonizing Blast makes the warlock into something of a hybrid between a martial character and a spellcaster. Eldritch blast is roughly on par with weapon attacks (d10+ability bonus with multiples at each tier - slightly more than a longbow, but on the other hand the warlock doesn't get the +2 a dedicated archer gets and can't do Sharpshooter shenanigans), and the limited spells give the warlock a small number of cool things they can do. It's basically what you give someone who says "I want to play something with some cool magic, but not too complicated."

ad_hoc · Apr 18, 2019

Staffan said:
The way I see it, eldritch blast + Agonizing Blast makes the warlock into something of a hybrid between a martial character and a spellcaster. Eldritch blast is roughly on par with weapon attacks (d10+ability bonus with multiples at each tier - slightly more than a longbow, but on the other hand the warlock doesn't get the +2 a dedicated archer gets and can't do Sharpshooter shenanigans), and the limited spells give the warlock a small number of cool things they can do. It's basically what you give someone who says "I want to play something with some cool magic, but not too complicated."

A Warlock can certainly be played that way, but then that is part of why they are the most complicated class. They have a lot of options.

Their power comes from their spells. They are the most potent spellcasters in the game, only the Sorcerer comes close. At 5th level they have an average of 6 3rd level spells per day. That is far more powerful than any other spellcaster as 1st and 2nd level spells are much weaker than 3rd level ones.

An average combat lasts 3 rounds with an average of 6 of them per day. So they cast their big spell and then use cantrips for the next 2 rounds. The cantrip is not the star of the show.

Mistwell · Apr 18, 2019

The opportunity cost of agonizing blast is high. It vastly diminishes the depth and flexibility of your PC in exchange for some extra damage.

Brashnir2 · Apr 18, 2019

Would be more interested in seeing data on spells cast per level, since low-level spells will always be used more often in an open comparison.

But that said, this is still a cool data set.

Immoralkickass · Apr 18, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
Searing Smite among the most popular Paladin spells? Really? That spell is bloody useless.

Even more offensive to my sensibilities is that Searing Smite is on the popular list and Wrathful Smite isn't. Double WTF?

I'm more surprised that Witch bolt made the Warlock list.

TwoSix · Apr 18, 2019

Mistwell said:
The opportunity cost of agonizing blast is high. It vastly diminishes the depth and flexibility of your PC in exchange for some extra damage.

You might have to walk me through that one. One invocation doesn't seem like a high opportunity cost, especially since the bulk of other invocation choices fall into the "good, not great" category, even factoring in XgtE.

Dausuul · Apr 18, 2019

Mistwell said:
The opportunity cost of agonizing blast is high. It vastly diminishes the depth and flexibility of your PC in exchange for some extra damage.

Oh, come on. It's one invocation slot. It does not "vastly" diminish anything. There is certainly an opportunity cost, but it is hardly "vast." Furthermore, it gives you far more flexibility in using your spell slots - see below.

ad_hoc said:
At 5th level they have an average of 6 3rd level spells per day. That is far more powerful than any other spellcaster as 1st and 2nd level spells are much weaker than 3rd level ones.

The problem with this is that while you get "gas" far cheaper than traditional casters, your tank is tiny. If you are relying too heavily on your spell slots to do all the work, it is very easy to run dry and find yourself empty at a critical moment. Nor can you concentrate all that firepower where it counts.

You cannot assume that every day is going to be precisely average. How many leveled spells are you going to cast per combat? If you go with the average and cast one per fight, and the DM throws a sequence at you where you have three battles in rapid succession culminating in a boss fight, you will enter that boss fight with nothing left in the tank. Not only that, but if you ever want to use any of those spell slots for non-combat purposes, it comes out of your combat "budget."

Having a powerful at-will attack - either eldritch blast with Agonizing Blast, or a weapon attack with Thirsting Blade - frees you from relying on your very limited spell slots. You can rely on your at-will option in the easy fights, and conserve your spell slots for when you really need them.

Mistwell · Apr 18, 2019

TwoSix said:
You might have to walk me through that one. One invocation doesn't seem like a high opportunity cost, especially since the bulk of other invocation choices fall into the "good, not great" category, even factoring in XgtE.

Dausuul said:
Oh, come on. It's one invocation slot. It does not "vastly" diminish anything. There is certainly an opportunity cost, but it is hardly "vast." Furthermore, it gives you far more flexibility in using your spell slots - see below.

You only get two invocations. Devoting 50% of your choices to this choice is a very significant choice.

I think the disconnect here is twofold. 1) the premise that combat is so much more important than non-combat that a non-combat option is considered de facto sub-optimal, and 2) the premise that "more direct damage" is vastly superior to other ways of influencing combat.

Choosing to increase damage with agonizing blast is a huge opportunity cost. Many other options increase FLEXIBILITY of the class. If you've chosen Tome, Book of Ancient Secrets is huge for flexibility for example. Devil's Sight is hugely useful for most warlocks. Fiendish Vigor is 8 extra hit points, which may be critical to living at early levels. Mire the Mind can completely alter an encounter. Chainlocks may well want Voice of the Chain Master for flexibility. Bladelocks may want improved pact weapon and thirsting blade. Misty visions is a good invocation at earlier levels for general utility. There are just so many good invocations.

I am not saying agonizing blast is inherently bad. I am saying it's a choice which has a very high cost to the flexibility of that character. If what you care about most is direct damage in combat, great, choose that.

Dausuul · Apr 18, 2019

Mistwell said:
You only get two invocations. Devoting 50% of your choices to this choice is a very significant choice.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought we were talking about level 5 warlocks, so that ad_hoc could maximize the number of spells of level 3+ that warlocks get relative to other casters. Now you want to switch to level 2-4 warlocks, so you can minimize the number of invocations. Can we get on the same page, please? I understand that levels 6 and higher simply don't exist, but I'm not clear on where we are in the 2-5 range.

Gradine · Apr 18, 2019

Immoralkickass said:
I'm more surprised that Witch bolt made the Warlock list.

I mean, the vast majority of players don't really understand nor care about character optimization. Especially not when presented with the option: Do you want to use Force Lightning? Because this is basically Force Lightning.

'Cure Wounds' is D&D's Most Popular Spell

Staffan

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ad_hoc

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Mistwell

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Brashnir2

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TwoSix

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Dausuul

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Mistwell

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Dausuul

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Gradine

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