Big Changes in ICv2's RPG Industry Charts, as Pathfinder Drops Off Before 2E's Release!

Ash Mantle · Mar 8, 2019

S'mon said:
I think you're saying that Paizo rules supplements written for 5e D&D would not be good.
I think you're right.

I'm saying that to do so Paizo would need to better understand the design principles and assumptions underpining 5e, whether they'll be good or bad is still up for discussion

If I were them I'd not do that, I'd just issue 5e (or more likely dual stat 5e & PF2) conversions of my most popular 3e & PF1 APs. Single volume, like the Runelords & Crimson Throne 3e>PF ones; hardback if that makes the most financial sense, though a fat softback should be fine too. I'd publish them 2 a year, same rate as the current APs come out.

That's also what I've been saying and agreeing with, it'll definitely be awesome if they decide to do that.

Ash Mantle · Mar 8, 2019

Morrus said:
Wow.

For the record, I disagree strongly with every single thing you said here.

That's fine

Do you disagree strongly that 5e's foundations are at once a looser system yet mechanically tight and everything functions rather well? Do you disagree strongly that there are deliberate traps that have been designed into the 3x edition systems and Pathfinder and that lot of that system does have poor choices? Do you disagree strongly that a designer in the 3x edition systems and Pathfinder could intentionally or accidentally design poor mechanics into the system in addition to good and well designed mechanics?
I mean 5e isn't a flawless system by any means and there have been design choices in that system that are also baffling but they also managed to fix more of the glaring issues of its predecessors for the better IMO.

I do feel that whether Paizo has a solid mechanical design history is subjective, and I've had more poor experiences with the system, as both a DM and a player but those are only my experiences. But you can also see in a lot of their class design, the mechanics of those classes have been rather poorly realised.

TrippyHippy · Mar 8, 2019

For me, a 600 page core rules book isn't a characteristic of a well designed game.

Morrus · Mar 8, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
For me, a 600 page core rules book isn't a characteristic of a well designed game.

How many pages is a characteristic of a well designed game? And in what font size?

Zardnaar · Mar 8, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
In RPG terms, Star Wars was still a massive license in 1987. The brand was so ingrained in popular culture, that a whole generation of young boys especially grew up on the 'first wave' of Star Wars popularity. The 1987 RPG was very much at the head of the 'second wave'.

Star Wars was basically dead in 87. I think they got the licence relatively cheap.

Biggest impact was Heir to the Empire which revived it. They gave Zahn RPG material and its how things like Victory Star destroyers entered the novel lines. I was there in the rise of the old EU took time to pick up steam.

Staffan · Mar 8, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
For me, a 600 page core rules book isn't a characteristic of a well designed game.

Consider that the Pathfinder core book is the equivalent of both the PHB and DMG for D&D. Or at least the mechanical parts of the DMG.

That said... that's going to be one unwieldy book.

TrippyHippy · Mar 8, 2019

Morrus said:
How many pages is a characteristic of a well designed game? And in what font size?

Anything that takes longer than it needs to, in order to provide a 'basic game' is too long. YMMV but I'd present several games that have made their core books of similar dimensions and have had consumer feedback that has made them reconsider. Champions for example, had to effectively replace their Hero 6th edition with a 250 page 'Champions Complete' book because the game had become considered too unwieldy.

Beyond that, if it's chief competitor is getting it's own rules out there in substantially more concise fashion then you'd think someone in the design team would have taken this under consideration. For their sake, one can only hope that they've got a good contigency with a Starter set as, even if it is anecdotally, I know lots of gamers that would automatically be turned off by any D&Desque game merely by mentioning it is a 600 page book. Consider that the most common criticsm levied against Pathfinder these days is that it is a more complex version of D&D, they aren't doing anything to address that criticism. That is not a good design practice. Like D&D 4th, it shows that the designers are listening to the feedback of people they want to listen to, rather than the people they need to.

Staffan said:
Consider that the Pathfinder core book is the equivalent of both the PHB and DMG for D&D. Or at least the mechanical parts of the DMG.

That said... that's going to be one unwieldy book.

Yes, the Pathfinder core book is an attempt to combine the equivalent of the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, but you don't need the Dungeon Masters Guide to play D&D. Moreover, if you really want the complete set, then I'd say the Bestiary/Monster Manual is more important than the DM advice and this is still in a separate book.

Morrus · Mar 8, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
Anything that takes longer than it needs to, in order to provide a 'basic game' is too long. YMMV but I'd present several games that have made their core books of similar dimensions and have had consumer feedback that has made them reconsider. Champions for example, had to effectively replace their Hero 6th edition with a 250 page 'Champions Complete' book because the game had become considered too unwieldy.

Beyond that, if it's chief competitor is getting it's own rules out there in substantially more concise fashion then you'd think someone in the design team would have taken this under consideration. For their sake, one can only hope that they've got a good contigency with a Starter set as, even if it is anecdotally, I know lots of gamers that would automatically be turned off by any D&Desque game merely by mentioning it is a 600 page book. Consider that the most common criticsm levied against Pathfinder these days is that it is a more complex version of D&D, they aren't doing anything to address that criticism. That is not a good design practice. Like D&D 4th, it shows that the designers are listening to the feedback of people they want to listen to, rather than the people they need to.

Somebody save me!

TrippyHippy · Mar 9, 2019

Morrus said:
Somebody save me!

I guess Paizo would like to.

Morrus · Mar 9, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
Yes, the Pathfinder core book is an attempt to combine the equivalent of the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, but you don't need the Dungeon Masters Guide to play D&D. Moreover, if you really want the complete set, then I'd say the Bestiary/Monster Manual is more important than the DM advice and this is still in a separate book.

So rip the book in half or something. Or don't read the bit you don't need. You're equating format with game design. I mean, they could give you 600 1-page books if you like? Does that make it the best game design?