Big Changes in ICv2's RPG Industry Charts, as Pathfinder Drops Off Before 2E's Release!

Zardnaar · Mar 9, 2019

Morrus said:
So rip the book in half or something. Or don't read the bit you don't need. You're equating format with game design. I mean, they could give you 600 1-page books if you like? Does that make it the best game design?

TSR monster compendiums

pogre · Mar 9, 2019

Zarithar said:
Unpopular opinion: Paizo should release a 5e version of Golarion and some of the associated APs. None of the people in the three gaming groups I am a part of are even remotely interested in PF2, and yes... several of us did play PF extensively for a couple of years. As others have said, Golarion is a great fantasy setting. Paizo was once a 3rd party publisher for D&D... why can't they return to that in some fashion?

I imagine the answer to why is pretty complex.

I wish they would because I like their adventures and I like 5e.

I ran PF a few years ago to specifically run a Runelords campaign. I won't do that again. I'm not quite willing to run 3.X again to just enjoy an adventure path.

TrippyHippy · Mar 9, 2019

Morrus said:
So rip the book in half or something. Or don't read the bit you don't need. You're equating format with game design. I mean, they could give you 600 1-page books if you like? Does that make it the best game design?

I think format is actually part of the design. A good game design should take minutes to learn and a lifetime to master. If the format essentially inhibits a new audience from learning it in minutes, then it's a design flaw in my view. If you can take another game doing exactly the same thing, but in a more accessible way, then that is a design feature.

And I don't think people will find tearing the book in two a ready solution. I think they just won't buy it.

Morrus · Mar 9, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
I think format is actually part of the design. A good game design should take minutes to learn and a lifetime to master. If the format essentially inhibits a new audience from learning it in minutes, then it's a design flaw in my view. If you can take another game doing exactly the same thing, but in a more accessible way, then that is a design feature.

And I don't think people will find tearing the book in two a ready solution. I think they just won't buy it.

I guess don’t buy Pathfinder then?

Zardnaar · Mar 10, 2019

Morrus said:
I guess don’t buy Pathfinder then?

That might be a problem for Paizo. Most of my group has paizo material but none are planning on buying Pf2. At least if it resembles the playtest.

We played Pathfinder because it was better than 4E. 5E is decent so don't really see the point of Pf2 unless they drastically overhaul it.

TrippyHippy · Mar 10, 2019

Morrus said:
I guess don’t buy Pathfinder then?

To be sure, I don't think I'm part of their audience in any case. But, from the outside, I feel that their product will take something to make a new audience for itself. I don't think having a 600 book will do this.

Kurviak · Mar 10, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
To be sure, I don't think I'm part of their audience in any case. But, from the outside, I feel that their product will take something to make a new audience for itself. I don't think having a 600 book will do this.

I think the audience they are targeting based on their own words is people looking for a modern balanced complex rpg. So I think their book size is appropriate for that audience.

Morrus · Mar 10, 2019

The audience they’re targeting isn’t the 5E audience. It’s the folks who want something more complex than 5E. Thus complaints that it’s more complex than 5E are kinda missing the point.

They could make their version of 5E, but why would anybody buy it? They need to do their thing, not somebody else’s thing.

Staffan · Mar 10, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
Beyond that, if it's chief competitor is getting it's own rules out there in substantially more concise fashion then you'd think someone in the design team would have taken this under consideration. For their sake, one can only hope that they've got a good contigency with a Starter set as, even if it is anecdotally, I know lots of gamers that would automatically be turned off by any D&Desque game merely by mentioning it is a 600 page book. Consider that the most common criticsm levied against Pathfinder these days is that it is a more complex version of D&D, they aren't doing anything to address that criticism. That is not a good design practice. Like D&D 4th, it shows that the designers are listening to the feedback of people they want to listen to, rather than the people they need to.

Eh, I think there's room for a more complex game than D&D. Probably not at my table, but one of the guys I play with regularly has expressed that he feels 5e doesn't provide enough options or complexity.

Yes, the Pathfinder core book is an attempt to combine the equivalent of the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, but you don't need the Dungeon Masters Guide to play D&D. Moreover, if you really want the complete set, then I'd say the Bestiary/Monster Manual is more important than the DM advice and this is still in a separate book.

Well, the DMG traditionally has the magic items in it (with the exception of 4e), and it seems Pathfinder is continuing the 3e tradition of both making magic items an expected part of progression, and of providing magic items on-demand to PCs. I believe one of the 3e designers (could have been Ryan Dancey) said that 3e's magic items were a character point-based system bolted on top of a class/level-based system, with the character point being called a "gold piece".

The 3e DMG also had a bunch of rules stuff that wasn't so much advice as it was situational - ships, fighting underwater, weather, traps, treasure, planes, and so on. I'm expecting Pathfinder will be similar in this regard.

Morrus · Mar 10, 2019

TrippyHippy said:
Consider that the most common criticsm levied against Pathfinder these days is that it is a more complex version of D&D, they aren't doing anything to address that criticism. That is not a good design practice.

This isn't a criticism; it's merely a description. They could make D&D, and everybody could make D&D, and there could be no games but D&D, but why would anybody buy them when they can buy the actual D&D?

Some people want more complex games. I know you don't get that. But it's a thing. And Paizo are serving that market.

The snotty comments about "good design practice"? Eh.

1	Dungeons & Dragons	WotC
2	Legend of the Five Rings	FFG
3	Star Wars RPG	FFG
4	Starfinder	Paizo
5	Vampire	White Wolf

Big Changes in ICv2's RPG Industry Charts, as Pathfinder Drops Off Before 2E's Release!

Zardnaar

Legend

pogre

Legend

TrippyHippy

Hero

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Zardnaar

Legend

TrippyHippy

Hero

Kurviak

Explorer

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Staffan

Legend

Morrus

Well, that was fun

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