D&D (2024) Would 4 spell lists work in D&D (maybe 6e)?

Raith5 · Apr 23, 2018

mellored said:
"The spell doesn't fit in a category so it shouldn't exist" is exactly the thing I don't like.

I get this sentiment but there is the issue that it makes sense for magic to have some system or logic. I think other RPGs often have magic systems that seem less haphazard than D&D because they follow a spell list type of system. In D&D you can learn to cast metor swarm without learning fireball (or firebolt). That doesnt make much sense to me.

CapnZapp · Apr 23, 2018

It's not a great idea. In fact, I predict PF2 will fail if they forget that the allure of D&D is the texture - the incongruities, the exceptions, the oddities.

Nobody want a generic game with abstract classes and fully streamlined rules.

There are already retroclones and heartbreakers a plenty. What does PF2 bring to the table if not the D&D experience?

Remember, Paizo succeeded because PF did D&D better than 4E.

Let's hope they don't have hubris. Let's hope they don't delude themselves there's a "Pathfinder market" for a generic D&D product that's Pathfinder in name only.

Based on the play tests, I fear the worst. That they think they have a mandate to do whatever game they want, and that somehow us customers will like it just because it's called Pathfinder. Even if it turns out to be something else than a compatible D&D clone.

Instead they should have made what they did for Pathfinder. Identify a niche not served by WotC and exploiting that. They should have striped for a game that is recognizably 5e:ish, only more complex and deeper.

TLDR the niche under-served by WotC is "advanced" D&D. Thats what they should be creating. D&D only crunchier. Not an unrecognizable rules engine that mostly resembles a random collection of heartbreaker rules.

Thank you for reading.

Yaarel · Apr 23, 2018

MechaTarrasque said:
I have been half-heartedly following the Pathfinder 2 playtest announcements, and I saw something about it having 4 spell lists (Material, Mental, Spiritual, and Vital) and it looks like full casters would get access to 2 lists (and maybe half casters get 1?).

It is probably too late in 5e for anything like this, but, assuming it goes over well in Pathfinder, would you want something like this for 6e (assuming there is a 6e of course)?

And, if we assumed that the 5e classes would be the starting 6e classes, how would you want this divided up?

The four spell themes that PF2 is implementing is extremely powerful. I have been using it myself for a number of years now, for 4e and 5e.

It is doable, useful, flexible, and flavorful.

I developed these four when organizing all the official spells by theme, and found that *every* spell organizes into one of these four themes.

• Psionic/Charm/Divination/Telekinesis/Force/Mental
• Elemental/Material
• Healing/Nature/Vital
• Spirtual/Ether/Resurrection/Planar/Teleport

In modern settings, I call these four: Psi, Mecha, Bio, and Quantum.

Yaarel · Apr 23, 2018

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Dragon Warriors from the 80s had a nice thematic setup for Elementalists which could be adapted to be schools of magic:

Regarding the Elemental/Material theme.

I ended up going with the Magic: The Gathering split that often shows up in D&D.

• Air-Water
• Fire-Earth

Pairing the elements this way ends up more useful. Fire makes inert Earth more dynamic, and using Fire to ‘melt’ and ‘reshape’ or ‘animate’ Earth makes thematic sense. Clustering Earth with Fire also makes the emphasis on fire less of a one-trick pony.

Meanwhile, weather magic from Ray of Frost to Ice Storm to Wind Walk makes Air-Water inseparable anyway.

Note, the Fifth Element is Spirit (called Ether, Etherealness, Idea, etcetera) and it forms its own ‘Spiritual’ theme. Spirit includes light and void and space-time. Spirit is the stuff that the eternal soul and consciousness are made out of. Spirit includes planar travel and teleportation.

In Daoism, the five ways of moving correlate to the five Helenistic elements in the following way.

Fire ← Fire
Water ← Water
Metal/Crystal ← Earth
Tree/Wind ← Air
Soil/Space ← Spirit

The Grassy Gnoll · Apr 23, 2018

CapnZapp said:
It's not a great idea. In fact, I predict PF2 will fail if they forget that the allure of D&D is the texture - the incongruities, the exceptions, the oddities.

Nobody want a generic game with abstract classes and fully streamlined rules.

There are already retroclones and heartbreakers a plenty. What does PF2 bring to the table if not the D&D experience?

Remember, Paizo succeeded because PF did D&D better than 4E.

Let's hope they don't have hubris. Let's hope they don't delude themselves there's a "Pathfinder market" for a generic D&D product that's Pathfinder in name only.

Based on the play tests, I fear the worst. That they think they have a mandate to do whatever game they want, and that somehow us customers will like it just because it's called Pathfinder. Even if it turns out to be something else than a compatible D&D clone.

Instead they should have made what they did for Pathfinder. Identify a niche not served by WotC and exploiting that. They should have striped for a game that is recognizably 5e:ish, only more complex and deeper.

TLDR the niche under-served by WotC is "advanced" D&D. Thats what they should be creating. D&D only crunchier. Not an unrecognizable rules engine that mostly resembles a random collection of heartbreaker rules.

Thank you for reading.

Sorry for being dumb - what is a heartbreaker rule?

TwoSix · Apr 23, 2018

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Sorry for being dumb - what is a heartbreaker rule?

People have been making their own houseruled versions of D&D almost since D&D came out, where they clean up rules they don't like into something more symmetrical, or streamlined, or simply better, in their eyes. The collective term for those kinds of games is "fantasy heartbreaker", because everyone who makes one thinks their ideas will spread like wildfire because they've "fixed D&D", only to be inevitably disappointed when no one cares.

The Grassy Gnoll · Apr 23, 2018

Thank you!

D&D (2024) Would 4 spell lists work in D&D (maybe 6e)?

Raith5

Adventurer

CapnZapp

Legend

Yaarel

He Mage

Yaarel

He Mage

The Grassy Gnoll

Explorer

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

The Grassy Gnoll

Explorer

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