Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Thievery? Conquest? If I like the neighbor's house, I can't just go take it. In D&D, sometimes it is even encouraged to do so (how many ruined castles have you "liberated" in TSR or WotC's own published adventures?)! There are all kinds of actions that are frowned upon in modern civilization that are practically mandatory in D&D.

Oh, and the funny thing about "dog whistles"? If you can hear it, you must be a dog...

Funny. I don't think I've ever played a game of D&D where looting and conquering were practically mandatory.
 

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I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

I'm pretty sure that's just how a lot of people see Call of Cthulhu games.

In fact, my favorite fantasy RPG, Agone, has a very similar premise for heroism. It also adds in the fact that open and direct conflict with the entity they are struggling against, and his minions, often consumes them with his corruption, meaning the wisest form of action is almost never to fight head on.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
My point is that the violence being so abstract makes games like DnD actually less violent in a way. It's very clean and sanitized like Zelda, of which I too am a fan. Kids have access to 5e, and its not raising alarm bells. Fighting and killing is not treated at all realistically, and is therefore less immediate and bloody. Thus my comment about weapons that don't cause bleeding, and poking fun at "hard-core" players.

And of course DnD is silly. But it's harmless fun, because the violence is pretty much treated like kids playing cops and robbers, or a board game where pieces are just removed. It's not graphic as a default.
This makes it a good choice for high adventure stories, and most of the time the silliness slides into the background anyway. No moral high horse.

It's still nice having less killing alternatives, however.
More choices is a good thing (as long as my favorite is among them!)
 

Brogga

First Post
I am happy there are differences and a variety of games out there. However, many long time players (like myself) are definitely OK with the R-rated sword and sorcery escapism that really drove D&D in the early days.

By all means, have options for those that want them. But lets not sanitize things (tanarii?) either. Sometimes we have even (gasp) played groups of antiheroes!

I am looking for escapism. If I want real heroics, I can be kind to others day to day, give to charity and work in a soup kitchen. I don't need RPGs for that. I need them to help me be a barbarian warlord, a dragonslayer, a king among mortals...a wizard with dangerous powers.

To each their own!

Amen sir. Amen.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
That might depend on how you measure it. How often does anyone run a long-term campaign in a level-free system that successfully lasts for fifty sessions? From my understanding, level-based games offer much better player-retention, since players want to stick around and advance. Games that offer lateral advancement (or no advancement) tend to be popular for short campaigns and one-shots.

::shrug:: Who knows?* I mean, statistically "level-based games" is going to be dominated/conflated by D&D. I'm also not sure that its as necessary for Fate and its ilk, as the "plot" seems to move/resolve faster as well (IME, at least). I'd also suspect that Fate and the like would support much more episodic play. That is: we all show up and resolve the plot equivalent of an entire D&D adventure in one session, rather than 3 to 5. What that might mean WRT this advancement question....I dunno. (Also, default Fate does have advancement, you just don't start as the clueless farmboy.)

I think the longest Fate campaign I've run lasted around 10 sessions. Its unusual, IME, for a decent campaign idea or story arc to take longer than three sessions (~12 hours) of Fate to resolve. With one big exception for mysteries! It seems like every system, even Gumshoe, grinds to a crawl for mysteries because the players spend so much time ruminating and talking about clues, rather than going out and getting more. (Although, Gumshoe at least tries to make sure that they always have the capability of doing so....most other games seem to stall on "What the Frell to do we do now?" because the DM didn't communicate the importance of some clue properly.

*A similar issue with Fate and many other "Indie" games is that they seem to be mostly played and playtested with groups of 2 to three players. Things can get wonky when you try them with 5 players at table.
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
Your article seems to conflate a couple of well trodden lines of discussion being the argument against levelling up style advancement in rpg's and the argument that a particular style of conflict resolution in rpg's should be encouraged (or perhaps more accurately that another style should be discouraged).

Addressing each in that order:

Levelling up

Yes, the levelling up style of advancement results in characters becoming better at things they haven't been seen to use in an adventure AND in ways that don't make intuitive sense. The purpose of such levelling up is to give players a sense of advancement when they achieve the goals set out for them by the game master, to give them access to new abilities they can enjoy using and to enable them to take on more difficult challenges. It is not intended to model real life experience.

The RQ or CoC method of advancement does meet these goals as well but I'm sure anyone who has played RQ for any length of time has experience the guy who keeps casting a spell at the start of combat to get a power check then he throws his javelin, until he hits and gets a tick on that skill at which point he then shoots his bow.

In OD&D it was through finding gold, in newer through defeating monsters, in others through achieving milestones. At the end the way you gain experience does matter as it encourages a style of play but none are actually "realistic" to justify why the wizard can now cast better magic missiles - but then that's not what the games are trying to do IMO.

what you seem to want in d&d is Xperience for overcoming obstacles with a penalty for killing stuff. Just do that then.

Heroism

You view heroism as not killing. This is one way to play but the posters above address this. Is killing shoggoths OK? a mad scientist co-operating with deep ones to summon a horde of star spawns of Cthulhu to eat Chicago? A necromancer working with goblins to release Tharizdun?

I am not a fan of pure treasure hunting scenarios without a level of threat to innocents or important exploration. But these are few and far between IME. Most D&D scenarios are perhaps too much save the world, too heroic IMO. Could Tomb of Annihilation, Tyranny of Dragons etc be any more like Masks of Nyarlathotep in requiring the party to do stuff at high personal risk to save the world?

If you don't eliminate some evil it just kills again. It is just as much a moral decision with consequences to let it live than to kill it. In many games the player knows that the things they are killing will kill innocents if left to their own devices.

I too have been playing since the late 70's and pretty much since the early 80's the majority (but not all) of my gaming has been "good" goal oriented (defeat the raiding Giants, stop the cultists summoning the thing that wants to destroy the world, rescue the slaves) where the goal is not just kill and loot.

Combining the issues

My solution is to:
1. Recognise that the purpose of levelling up isn't to model how humans improve but to allow access to different types of adventure and to grant a tangible sense of improvement. (If I don't want this too much I can play traveller or just make the characters at the level I want in D&D and gain no exp.)

2. Make the adventures good goal oriented and award exp mostly for goal achievement and overcoming obstacles.

3 award xp for the stuff you want. I want slower advancement in one of my games so give out 10-20% of the stated exp for defeating monsters and bonus lumps of xp fo rescuing innocents, foiling plots etc.
 

pemerton

Legend
We can reasonably question the claim D&D makes about alignment and ask whether the adventurers are indeed good, and whether the monsters are evil, but my point is that the situations the Iliad and D&D present us with are quite different.
Also, the characters in the Iliad are heavily motivated by honour. This plays very little role in D&D, especially more traditional or classic D&D dungeoneering.

I'd certainly enjoy a fantasy game that doesn't ignore combat, but also doesn't revolve entirely around it either. I'm pretty sure my next campaign is going to use Blades in the Dark if I can talk my players into trying a new system.
I think most FRPGs that aren't D&D will tick that box - RQ and RM among the classics; HeroWars/Quest, Burning Wheel, Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy Hack, among the moderns.

I don't really like Marvel Super-Heroes approach to genre emulation. I think it encourages gaming the system. A better method in my view is to go straight to the source material. Instead of using a fairly crude system of awards and penalties, which is bound to only be partially correct at best, a GM ought to simply tell their players that a game is supposed to emulate a particular genre and name the source material.
Have you read/played Marvel Heroic RP?

It's the only supers game I've played. Its rules for fisticuffs are the same as its rules for everything else - from establishing assets to imposing complications to making people scared or confused - but it's pretty hard to actually kill someone (as opposed to knocking them senseless).
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Far too much higher-order thinking for my escapism. I want to be presented with scenarios where face-bashing the threat to innocents is a perfectly valid method. Most real problems cannot be solved in this way, and the majority of people playing RPGs understand this and don’t need it told to them.

However it is indeed fun to pretend that this is not the case from time to time, and resort to good old fashioned abstracted violence. Don’t underestimate the value to vicarious catharsis to the heart and mind.
 

Chris,

It sounds like you and I, at least partially, come from Comics as opposed to genre novels. I read comics long before I read novels. The thing is though, in my experience with fantasy and sci-fi novels, those protagonists kill more because, at least until the YA category, comics were assumed to be for kids and novels for more "mature" readers.

While I loved comics and cartoons as a kid, at this point in my life, I'd rather kill an orc than put a supervillain in jail (to break out and commit more crimes). In fact, I've reached a point where, personally, I blame Batman for Joker's murder sprees almost as much as the Joker himself.

You are right, there are different games for everybody and that's a good thing. :)
 

Funny. I don't think I've ever played a game of D&D where looting and conquering were practically mandatory.

I've only played villains in one game, but it was a change of pace and we had a good time with it. We embraced that we were nomadic conquerors and would destabilize a region just because we were there. I wouldn't want to do that all of the time, but I look back and smile at our deeds in that game. IAs a gamer, I've gone through different tastes in RPGs and playstyle. Much of it has to do with the group I'm with it. I think most gamers would have similar responses.

If everyone at the table is comfortable and having fun, play however you like.

I mean, from what I understand about several of Gygax's first players, their characters were evil.
 

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