A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If one thinks about one of the more famous examples of monster vulnerability - Eowyn and Merry killing the Witch-King - the excitemen and drama is not in discovering the Witch-King's weakness. It's in these two standing against him. My own view is that also makes for better RPGing.
Except here the monster actually - and rather foolishly - tells the heroes what its vulnerability is! Whereupon, of course, Eowyn then proceeds to exploit the hell out of it.

That said, this one particular combat is my go-to example of why I always prefer flatter power curves in a game: a low-level nobody like Merry can still hit one of the more powerful monsters in the world hard enough to make it sit up and pay attention.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Except here the monster actually - and rather foolishly - tells the heroes what its vulnerability is! Whereupon, of course, Eowyn then proceeds to exploit the hell out of it.
Because she would have not fought the Witch-King otherwise? Or, would have stopped being "no man" if the Witch-King didn't tell her his weakness (which it apparently didn't know either)?

I don't get this argument at all. It's like saying "but water is wet" when told the ocean is full of water -- yeah, okay, also true, but not really relevant to the point.
 


hawkeyefan

Legend
What I am saying is that categories 1 and 3 are the same category. Right now, my game is category 1. If [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] were to join my game, it wouldn't work for him and I would go into your category 3, even though I didn't change anything about my game. Subjectivity controls whether games work or partially work. Category 2 involves those games that are Railroad, "Mother May I"(if it exists outside of a white room, and other games that involve bad DMing.

No, they’re different. There are games where everyone is satisfied with the style of play. There are games where some people are satisfied with the style of play, or where all the players are sometimes satisfied with the style of play.

Yes, an individual’s decision about a game...if it’s satisfactory or not or partially so...is subjective. What I was saying is that objectively there are three categories of game...satisfactory, non-satisfactory, and partially satisfactory. That’s objectively true.

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is not the only one using the term in this thread, and it really should have been dropped as a term immediately when people began taking offense at the pejorative.

No, it didn’t need to be dropped. People can choose to take offense at anything. There are rules on these boards, but I don’t think they were violated. There’s also standard etiquette, but I don’t think that using a loaded term about a RPG should really rise to the level of offense.

There has been a discussion about the term and what it means, and that’s good. And you don’t like the term, and that’s fine, too. You’re as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. But I’d be willing to bet that the number of times MMI was actually used pejoratively is far less than your posts rallying against it.

Sure, I get that. There are other systems or the ability to modify the system, though, so it's all good. If they are in a game with a group that doesn't want to alter the system or change systems, then they should seek other games where they can get what they want. What they should not do is insult the system and/or playstyle that they don't like.

Fair enough. I don’t think nearly as much insult was intended as has been taken. Certainly not in the original OP that spawned this thread.

So as I said before, I don't stop actions in game. The action would happen and then I would speak to the player outside of the game about metagaming. Most probably, I'd see if there was some in game way for him to have that knowledge so that it's not even an issue. 5e is good like that in that all PCs have all skills, so the PC would have some level of monster lore to roll against. Perhaps his home town was near to a swamp where trolls would be common, and therefore so is the knowledge of trolls, which would get rid of even the need to roll.

An in game reason was given. The character’s uncle told him about trolls. There’s no need for anything further.

Any further action does move toward a Mother May I situation. The player is not allowed to make such decisions but has to ask for the DM’s approval.

It's not the DM being a jerk. What it is, is the DM and the players not being on the same page as to the style of game. If that many players are at odds with the DM on the style of game being played, they need to go their separate ways and find people who are more compatible.

In my opinion, a DM who so blatantly ignores cues about what kind of play his players are interested very well may be a jerk. There could be other reasons for it...perhaps he’s just clueless or something. But I’d take a cue like that and tailor my game accordingly if that were me.

That wasn't an example of "Mother May I," though. Even if the DM denied the action in game due to metagaming, that's just a ruling about what is allowed and not allowed in game play. Denial does not automatically equal "Mother May I."

Yes. Yes it does. This is a strong example of Mother May I. You’ve even described it as such without using the term. “That’s just a ruling about what is allowed and not allowed in game play.”

Who made the ruling? The DM. And why? To overrule the player’s input that his character knows trolls are vulnerable to fire because of his Uncle Elmo.
 

pemerton

Legend
A competition is a form of combat.
No it's not. I've sat, and I've graded, competitive examinations. They are nothing like combat.

Even as competitoins, they are different - a race or an exam is an attempt to do better than another at a common task. Combat is an attempt to best another by preventing them doing the same to you. And this can be seen in mechanical resolution terms: an attempt to adapt Runequest's combat resolution rules for racing would break down pretty quickly, because there is no analogue in a race (or an exam) of the Runequest parry skill.

(Systems otherwise as different as BW and Marvel Heroic/Cortex+ Heroic are able to cope with this by dropping RQ's separate attack and parry stats, and resolving fights as opposed checks, which can also be adapted to running races.)

Furthermore, if all competition is combat then that generates obvious absurdities, like a poetry slam or battle of the bands being part of the combat "pillar" rather than the social "pillar".

The 5e "pillars" tell us about the design, and focus of play, of 5e. They are not, and don't even purport to be, a general analytical framework for RPGing.

look just a bit more broadly and ask why the vehicle is being repaired.
So does a joust belong to the social rather than the combat pillar if it is being done to win the heart of an admirer? At least as I understand it, the pillars are meant to be characterised by some combination of what is going on in the fiction and how that is resolved at the table, not what it is hoped success in the action might facilitiate.

Nothing new was being explored but the travel still puts it in the exploration realm.
What information is conveyed by this? In 5e D&D, to describe it as "exploration" tells us something about (i) what is happening in the fiction, and (ii) how that will be handled at the table - in particular, via the back-and-forth of free narration between player(s) and GM, and perhaps the occasional check if the player declares that his/her PC looks around, or picks something up, or whatever.

In my Prince Valiant game, there's no back-and-forth here: there's just framing. To describe it as "exploration" in the 5e D&D sense is to actively misdescribe both the techniques in use, and the table experience.

In my Traveller game, when checks are made to successfully make an interstellar jump, there is a standard subsystem that is followed, and if the checks are successful then the next stage of play is to narrate the PCs's ship's arrival at the destination world. Again, it has little to nothing in common with 5e's "exploration".

On-world travel in Classic Traveller is much closer to 5e's exploration; it's for that very reason that I've repeatedly characterised it, in threads over the past year or so, as the weakest part of the Traveller rules, and disappointing in comparison to the tightness of the other sub-systems.

all 5e did was clarify and codify something that's always been there in the background probably without a lot of us realizing it was there.

Had this clarification come from some other source whose words you value more highly we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
Huh? I've thought about different elements of play, and how they related to mechanics. long before WotC published 5e.

But taking a concept (the pillars) that just happened to come from a D&D edition and applying it universally certainly can and in my case does help understand or clarify how RPGs (can) work
But it's not doing this! It's leading you into repeated misdescriptions and mischaracterisations. For instance, the fact that you envisage travel in my Prince Valiant game as being like 5e D&D's exploration reveals that you don't understand what is happening at the table. It's actually closer to your concept of "downtime", but that woudl also be misleading because it is occurring in the course of what you would call an "adventure".

WotC in 4e distinguished exploration from encounters, and distinguished the latter into combat and non-combat resolution. That is a useful framework for 4e; it broadly maps onto the Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic distinction between transition scenes and acion scenes, although the latter have no combat/non-combat breakdown.

It would just distort understanding of 4e to insist that social skill challenges be thought about differently from travel skill challenges, or to insist on analysing travel skill challenges through the lens of exploration as that concept works in 4e.

And mutatis mutandis for other RPG systems.
 

pemerton

Legend
Except here the monster actually - and rather foolishly - tells the heroes what its vulnerability is!
As [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] has suggested, it's not clear that the Witch King even appreciated the pun in the prophecy and hence knew that he was weak in the relevant way (ie to a blow from a woman).

As Ovinomancer has also hinted at, does this mean you're agreeing with me that RPGing is more exciting when what is at issue is standing against a foe, than attempting to puzzle out the foe's weakness?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
An in game reason was given. The character’s uncle told him about trolls. There’s no need for anything further.

Player: My uncle told me (player consults the module the DM is running) that if we go down the left corridor and open the second door, under the rug is a secret compartment with 85gp and 2 potions of healing inside.

You don't see anything wrong with that? Weak justifications for metagaming are just that. Weak justifications. There absolutely does need to be something further in order for the character to have that knowledge.

Any further action does move toward a Mother May I situation. The player is not allowed to make such decisions but has to ask for the DM’s approval.

Denial does not equal "Mother May I" and never has. It takes for more than the DM saying no to a weak justification for metagaming.

Yes. Yes it does. This is a strong example of Mother May I. You’ve even described it as such without using the term. “That’s just a ruling about what is allowed and not allowed in game play.”

Who made the ruling? The DM. And why? To overrule the player’s input that his character knows trolls are vulnerable to fire because of his Uncle Elmo.

Once again, denial does not equal "Mother May I" and never has. It takes for more than the DM saying no to a weak justification for metagaming.

The thing you are also overlooking is that there are two possibilities here. 1) the DM allows metagaming. If that's the case, the DM won't deny the blatant metagaming going on in your example. 2) the DM does not allow metagaming, in which case metagaming is cheating. A DM saying no to cheating is not "overriding player input" as players don't get to provide input that is cheating.
 
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WotC in 4e distinguished exploration from encounters, and distinguished the latter into combat and non-combat resolution. That is a useful framework for 4e; it broadly maps onto the Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic distinction between transition scenes and acion scenes, although the latter have no combat/non-combat breakdown.

It would just distort understanding of 4e to insist that social skill challenges be thought about differently from travel skill challenges, or to insist on analysing travel skill challenges through the lens of exploration as that concept works in 4e.

And mutatis mutandis for other RPG systems.

Right, this kind of thing was easy to see in doing a redesign of 4e to produce HoML. In that game there are only 'scenes' with each being either a non-conflict 'interlude' or a conflict 'challenge'. There is no real importance to 'exploration' per se in HoML in that it isn't mechanically distinct from 'social interaction', both are either challenges, or interludes. There IS a mechanical distinction between combat and other types of challenge, so there are some possible distinctions, but that is more a reflection of a legacy of D&D making this kind of distinction and a conscious desire to emulate it (maybe this is a bad choice, I did play around with an abstract combat system which would treat them mechanically like other challenges, but the resulting game definitely departs radically from any 4e-like nature).
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Because she would have not fought the Witch-King otherwise? Or, would have stopped being "no man" if the Witch-King didn't tell her his weakness (which it apparently didn't know either)?

I don't get this argument at all. It's like saying "but water is wet" when told the ocean is full of water -- yeah, okay, also true, but not really relevant to the point.
We aren't told if she otherwise knew about this vulnerability; but when the Witch-King says "No man can kill me" and she, thinking quickly, comes back with "But I am no man", the Witch-King has just given away his weakness. This gives her confidence that if she fights him she might have a chance of taking him out - which, as we know, she does.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
As [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] has suggested, it's not clear that the Witch King even appreciated the pun in the prophecy and hence knew that he was weak in the relevant way (ie to a blow from a woman).

As Ovinomancer has also hinted at, does this mean you're agreeing with me that RPGing is more exciting when what is at issue is standing against a foe, than attempting to puzzle out the foe's weakness?
The real excitement here, were Eowyn my PC, would come not necessarily from somewhat-suicidally standing against a foe I couldn't beat but from the 'aha!' moment: the realization that due to his vulnerability maybe - just maybe - I can beat him where others cannot; with ongoing excitement as the combat plays out and I a) do beat him and b) survive.
 

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