D&D 2E What PF2E means for D&D5E

delericho

Legend
In tech courts we have trademark issues (much less patent issues) when the math and rules regarding things get that similar if the two companies are not friendly to each other.

WotC and Paizo ARE friendly to each other (as far as I know), so that's not something they have to fear. Fans on the otherhand...some of them are already going crazy just at the thought...if Paizo actually admitted to it blatantly...it might not be pretty.

Bear in mind that PF2 will almost certainly be under the OGL, and much of 5e is also open under the OGL (and it's the same license - 5e has a separate SRD from 3e, but the license is OGL v1.0a in both cases).

So there's a lot there that Paizo could openly and legally copy from if they were so inclined.
 

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delericho

Legend
So... what do you think PF2E means for 5E?

Almost nothing. It's a far greater threat to Pathfinder than it is to 5e.

Will it steal away a lot of the market? Is it a serious challenger to 5E's throne?

No, and no. Right now, D&D is so far out of sight as to have no meaningful competition (in TTRPGs). If WotC start making mistakes, that might change, but right now they're the top dog.

(Additionally, the two games cater to quite different market segments - PF is squarely aimed at people who prefer a much rules- and supplement-heavier game than is D&D. I would be quite surprised if that changes, from either direction.)

Are any of its ideas worth pilfering for 5E games?

Probably. If nothing else, I'd expect them to continue publishing Adventure Paths, and I'd expect it to be at least possible to convert them to 5e.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Almost nothing. It's a far greater threat to Pathfinder than it is to 5e.

This is absolutely right IMO - Paizo will be fracturing their player base with this move. I don't say that out of malice - every edition change leaves a portion of the players of the old edition behind. 1e to 2e had holdouts. 2e to 3e had holdouts. 3e to 4e had enough holdouts that Paizo was able to create Pathfinder and capture enough of those 3e holdouts to fund an entire game line for multiple years, but there are still groups that play 3e. PF1 to PF2 will have holdouts.

Hell even 3.0 to 3.5 had its share of holdouts, and that wasn't even a full edition change. The big threat that Paizo has is making a game that causes their own entrenched player base to decide that it's time to jump off - much like during the 3e to 4e change for D&D. And in the short term there doesn't even really need to be an alternative for them to jump to - with the amount of Pathfinder 1e material available currently and the ability to buy old edition material digitally, you could run campaigns for years without needing a new adventure path or sourcebook. If you've invested in a heavy library of material for Pathfinder and haven't worked your way through most of it yet, then the new edition is going to have to solve some deep problems you've had with the system for you to feel like you need to jump ship.

I think the risk is even higher for Pathfinder than for other games - Pathfinder started life as the game for people who didn't want to change editions. Much of that original audience is still there. Selling an audience like that on big changes in an edition switch is not a job I'd want to have myself.
 

This is absolutely right IMO - Paizo will be fracturing their player base with this move. I don't say that out of malice - every edition change leaves a portion of the players of the old edition behind. 1e to 2e had holdouts. 2e to 3e had holdouts. 3e to 4e had enough holdouts that Paizo was able to create Pathfinder and capture enough of those 3e holdouts to fund an entire game line for multiple years, but there are still groups that play 3e. PF1 to PF2 will have holdouts.

Hell even 3.0 to 3.5 had its share of holdouts, and that wasn't even a full edition change. The big threat that Paizo has is making a game that causes their own entrenched player base to decide that it's time to jump off - much like during the 3e to 4e change for D&D. And in the short term there doesn't even really need to be an alternative for them to jump to - with the amount of Pathfinder 1e material available currently and the ability to buy old edition material digitally, you could run campaigns for years without needing a new adventure path or sourcebook. If you've invested in a heavy library of material for Pathfinder and haven't worked your way through most of it yet, then the new edition is going to have to solve some deep problems you've had with the system for you to feel like you need to jump ship.

I think the risk is even higher for Pathfinder than for other games - Pathfinder started life as the game for people who didn't want to change editions. Much of that original audience is still there. Selling an audience like that on big changes in an edition switch is not a job I'd want to have myself.

Especially with Starfinder. I can see a lot of people wrapping up PF1 campaigns and giving Starfinder a go rather than jumping into PF2 and having to rebuy all their books.
 


delericho

Legend
This is absolutely right IMO - Paizo will be fracturing their player base with this move. I don't say that out of malice - every edition change leaves a portion of the players of the old edition behind.

Certainly, that seems to be the case here - most of the gamers in my circle are big PF fans (me, not so much), and their reaction to the news has been strongly negative. For the moment, the consensus seems to be to skip it.
 

This is absolutely right IMO - Paizo will be fracturing their player base with this move. I don't say that out of malice - every edition change leaves a portion of the players of the old edition behind. 1e to 2e had holdouts. 2e to 3e had holdouts. 3e to 4e had enough holdouts that Paizo was able to create Pathfinder and capture enough of those 3e holdouts to fund an entire game line for multiple years, but there are still groups that play 3e. PF1 to PF2 will have holdouts.

Hell even 3.0 to 3.5 had its share of holdouts, and that wasn't even a full edition change. The big threat that Paizo has is making a game that causes their own entrenched player base to decide that it's time to jump off - much like during the 3e to 4e change for D&D. And in the short term there doesn't even really need to be an alternative for them to jump to - with the amount of Pathfinder 1e material available currently and the ability to buy old edition material digitally, you could run campaigns for years without needing a new adventure path or sourcebook. If you've invested in a heavy library of material for Pathfinder and haven't worked your way through most of it yet, then the new edition is going to have to solve some deep problems you've had with the system for you to feel like you need to jump ship.

I think the risk is even higher for Pathfinder than for other games - Pathfinder started life as the game for people who didn't want to change editions. Much of that original audience is still there. Selling an audience like that on big changes in an edition switch is not a job I'd want to have myself.

The problem is that gamers don't live forever, and I don't think even the most devout PF fan would say that it is easy to get new players into it and up to speed. More importantly, DM's don't live forever, and PF isn't the most fun game to DM (at least in my experience). I suspect that if we ever got our hands of PFS records, we would see that "core only" PFS games were rising rapidly and the traditional "everything but the kitchen sink" PFS game is on the decline.

This is the calculus that WotC made with 4e and 5e. You need something to keep and develop new players and DM's.

The question is "is this the right time to do this?" I am not sure. It is a big roll of the dice, and timing is important. My gut says the main thing they got from looking at 5e was that WotC isn't going to substantially increase the complexity of 5e (the "big mechanical expansion" of XGtE didn't really make any existential changes), that there is a market for more complexity than 5e, a substantial part of that market has no emotional connection to 3x, and that PF1 is too 3x for people without that emotional connection to get into.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
So apparently Pathfinder 2nd Edition has been announced. The biggest news for me is that it WON'T be based on D&D5E. A bit of a risky move, if you ask me, because now D&D players (the most sizable group of TTRPG players) have less reason to buy PF2E books (unlike in 2008, when PF was compatible with 3.5E).

So... what do you think PF2E means for 5E? Will it steal away a lot of the market? Is it a serious challenger to 5E's throne? Are any of its ideas worth pilfering for 5E games? Or will PF2E come and go without much ado, as Starfinder did?

Discuss.
All the posters who are upset with 5E will quit 5E, join the Pathfinder Populace and send me all their 5E stuff.
 



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