Optimizing a two person party

My big worry would be mental saves. If one of them fails a wisdom or cha save, they are likely out of combat. One of the heavy armor clerics paired with a paladin would be my first choice. Both half elves for extra skills. Thought about Vuman but darkvision, fey ancenstry and extra skills won out. They start with excellent AC and mental saves and at 4th level they both take the Resilient (Con) feat to boost hp, saves, and concentration.

The paladin will have good social skills.

This duo will be weak on knowledge skills, but Guidance will help.

A half elf cleric can have the full suite of wisdom skills to address exploration and discovery: perception, insight, survival, animal handling. Being able to create food and water is a plus. They won't be stealthy.

By 6th level, the cleric can cover the duo with spirit guardians to deal with hordes while the paladin's aura helps protect from spellcasters. Ranged combat will be a problem. Toll the Dead can help but at tier 1 crossbows will do. At 7th level the paladin takes a level of hexblade for EB.

The cleric with perception will be great at noticing traps and other dangers. Background could give one of them proficiency in thieves' tools. With a 12 dex and guidance they would have a decent chance of unlocking and disarming things, especially if they can work together to gain advantage.

Healing and recovery is obviously covered. A big plus that either can heal if needed.

After 7th level, the paladin goes full sorcerer. By level 12, the paladin is a 5th level sorcerer and an 8th level caster according to the MC rules and has 4th level slots for smites, better than a 12th level paladin. Between them, the cleric (wis 20) and MC paladin (cha 18) have 12 cantrips, 27 cleric spells, 7 paladin spells, 6 sorcerer spells, and 2 warlock spells.

This pair will be dependent on short rests to recover their abilities, which could be liability.

I like your ideas, just exploring some options adjacent to them as well.

Volund said:

One of the heavy armor clerics paired with a paladin would be my first choice. Both half elves for extra skills. Thought about Vuman but darkvision, fey ancenstry and extra skills won out. They start with excellent AC and mental saves and at 4th level they both take the Resilient (Con) feat to boost hp, saves, and concentration.

This duo will be weak on knowledge skills, but Guidance will help.

A half elf cleric can have the full suite of wisdom skills to address exploration and discovery: perception, insight, survival, animal handling. Being able to create food and water is a plus. They won't be stealthy.

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What about a swapping a Hill Dwarf Knowledge cleric. Hill Dwarf means +2 HPs per level (+2 CON plus Dwarven Toughness), +1 WIS, and if at some point does take a feat for heavy armor no need to worry abut STR for it. And Darkvision. Knowledge cleric makes up the half-elf skill loss though knowledge skills only, plus adds in expertise (and stonecunning for a very specific subset) which is good for a moderate INT modifier. It also gives a CD for any specific tool or skill if a specific one is needed, and is Potent Spellcasting so Toll the Dead is even better (and it's ranged). But assuming a 14 DEX (instead of the 15 STR for full speed in Plate) the AC is only 1 less. Plus the very minor advantage that they aren't both competing for the same type of armor if magic armor is found.

It's interesting, Knowledge cleric isn't usually high on my list because of the mismatch between INT-based skills for a cleric, but the limited design space of a two character party could make that shine.

Volund said:

At 7th level the paladin takes a level of hexblade for EB.
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After 7th level, the paladin goes full sorcerer. By level 12, the paladin is a 5th level sorcerer and an 8th level caster according to the MC rules and has 4th level slots for smites, better than a 12th level paladin.

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Not sure if you counted the level of hexblade in the count before going sorcerer. I would hate to give up the feature at 7th, especially if it was resistance to magic from Oath of the Ancients. And the ASI at 8th, considering that at 4th you recommend Resilient (CON) which is a great feat but we need to boost CHR for social skills, saves (aura), DCs, and attack/damage (from hexblade).

I might suggest hexblade earlier - Booming Blade can be a nice boost before extra attack, and Shield can help tank at those low levels before plate can be afforded (and after as well, it scales great).

On the other hand, while weapon + shield is very nice for the tank, a two handed, GWM, and Oath of Vengance is a really good damage dealer which we could use. BUT hexblade can't make a two handed weapon CHR based unless you take pact of the blade at Warlock 3rd and pack of the blade it. Though that also opens up eventually getting Elven Accuracy, which pairs nicely with Oath of Vengance and GWM. Going Warlock 3 also means two 2nd level slots per short rest for casting or Divine Smite, instead of just one 1st level slot.

Blue said:

Not sure if you counted the level of hexblade in the count before going sorcerer. I would hate to give up the feature at 7th, especially if it was resistance to magic from Oath of the Ancients. And the ASI at 8th, considering that at 4th you recommend Resilient (CON) which is a great feat but we need to boost CHR for social skills, saves (aura), DCs, and attack/damage (from hexblade).

I might suggest hexblade earlier - Booming Blade can be a nice boost before extra attack, and Shield can help tank at those low levels before plate can be afforded (and after as well, it scales great).

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In actual play I would take HB after paladin 2 in order to switch over to Cha as the attack stat as early as possible. Based on the original post using 6th, 12th, and 16th level as snapshots I changed things up to optimize those specific levels, so I wanted to have the aura up to support spirit guardians concentration by level 6. At level 12 I wanted to have the 3rd level sorcerer spells online, so my second ASI comes from sorc 4 rather than paladin 8. I didn't worry about when the paladin/HB got their cha to 18 as long as it happened by level 12. Magic resistance from oath of the ancients is so tempting, and once you have that you are "pot committed" and have to continue to paladin 8. I went with 3rd level sorc spells over resistance to spell damage and an ASI, but it's just my personal preference. The 2 player party has to make sacrifices somewhere.

The knowledge cleric's skill checks solves a weakness of my pair of heroes and seems like a good trade for one point of AC! And hill dwarf is always a good choice for a cleric.

This was a fun exercise!

If we're running a two-person party, optimizing saving throws is even more important than in larger parties, since any effect that disables one person removes 50% of the party from the fight. To combat this, I present the double Paladin party. With a party of only two, we can easily stay within 10 feet of each other and enjoy +6 (or more) to all of our saving throws,

For the level 6 builds, they're both going straight Paladin 6.

Half-Elf Paladin(6) 8 Str, 18 Dex (ASI at level 4), 12 Con 10 Int, 14 Wis 16 Cha
By going for a Dexterity-focused build, the half-elf Paladin can cover the party's needs for Dexterity-based skills (between skill versatility and a criminal background). This build can also make (decent) use of a longbow for ranged combat. For the Sacred Oath, I'm taking Conquest for its bonus action attack in Spiritual Weapon.

Warforged Paladin(6) 16 Str, 8 Dex, 10 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha
Significant sacrifices of durability needed to be made to get 14 Int on a Paladin, but this, in combination with the Warforged Envoy's free skill and the sage background, allows us to be competent at the knowledge skills. Our lower than average hit points are counteracted by phenomenal AC (21 with heavy plating and a shield) and the save bonuses from double aura of protection. Assuming I planned to take these characters past level 6, I would take oath of the ancients, for the level 7 ability that halves damage from spells.

Half-elf gets six skills total: Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception

Warforged gets five: Arcana, History, Investigation, Religion, Perception

In combat, we both get Extra Attack, as well as another attack we can make with a bonus action: The half-elf gets Spiritual Weapon, and the Warforged gets Polearm Master, which has been changed to work with a spear (in one hand) in the november errata. We both have Divine Smite for nova damage, and we can close distances quickly on our warhorse mounts from Find Greater Steed. For Healing, we both have access to Lay on Hands for 30 hit points each, as well as Cure Wounds.

For level 12, I would multiclass Hexblade on both characters, which significantly eases MAD, offers an extra layer of defense against physical attacks in Shield, and also indirectly boosts our saving throws by allowing us to raise our Cha instead of our Strength or Dex.

Half-elf Paladin(9)/Warlock(3) 13 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 20 Cha (Elven Accuracy and +2 ASI)
9 levels in Paladin give us level 3 spell slots, while 3 levels in Hexblade gives us Charisma-based weapon attacks, Shield, Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, and access to Darkness+Devil's Sight, which we can abuse in a way most parties can't since our entire party has devil's sight. Since we can use two-handed weapons now, we're using a Double Scimitar for the free bonus action attack, and taking the oath of the Ancients to free up the other build to run the oath of vengeance. If Ravnica Backgrounds are allowed, the Orzhov background gives us access to Spirit Guardians, which will help with battling hordes.

Warforged Paladin (10)/Warlock(2) 13 Str, 8 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 18 Cha (ASI at level 4)
This build is similar, swapping one level of Warlock (since we only need one member who can cast Darkness) for Paladin to get fear immunity. Unlikely to come up given our excellent saving throws, but worth having just in case. This build also takes Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight for invocations, and it takes Polearm Master at level 8 to synergize with the Oath of Vengeance level 7 ability, granting a free move if an enemy enters our reach, while also giving us a bonus action attack.


For level 16, the builds are the same, just levelling Paladin up to 13 and 14 respectively, which gives us Improved Divine Smite and level 4 spells on both characters, as well as cleansing touch on one.

Gavin O. said:

If we're running a two-person party, optimizing saving throws is even more important than in larger parties, since any effect that disables one person removes 50% of the party from the fight. To combat this, I present the double Paladin party. With a party of only two, we can easily stay within 10 feet of each other and enjoy +6 (or more) to all of our saving throws,

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This gets sniped from a most unusual place - errata to the DMG.

Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section:
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.

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So the Auras don't stack.

Which is lousy, since this is a cool pair.

Combat's that are meant for 4-5 person parties are going to always be deadly for a 2 person party. You are going to have to have 2 PC's that highly optimize for combat and both focus on either range and kiting or defense. Stealth will be very important in most combats.

My suggested level 6 party is:

PC 1: Divination Wizard 5 Trickery Cleric 1
PC 2: Divination Wizard 5 + Bard 1

Slight Variation:
Both PC's: Divination Wizard 5 Knowledge/Trickery Cleric 1

Goals:
1. Share Wizard Spell Books to enhance spells known in both casters spell books.
2. Have healing word for quick pick ups
3. Be able to get bonuses to important skill checks
4. Have a good stealth skill and ways to enhance it
5. Use defensive spells like shield and the elemental resistance spell and blur to greatly lower incoming damage.

I think these 2 PC's could cover most challenges thrown their way. The PC's would have to risk long rests more often, but leomunds tiny hut helps a lot there. I think they have combat covered. I can't think of any glaring weakness for these 2 PC's.

FrogReaver said:

Combat's that are meant for 4-5 person parties are going to always be deadly for a 2 person party. You are going to have to have 2 PC's that highly optimize for combat and both focus on either range and kiting or defense. Stealth will be very important in most combats.

My suggested level 6 party is:

PC 1: Divination Wizard 5 Trickery Cleric 1
PC 2: Divination Wizard 5 + Bard 1

Slight Variation:
Both PC's: Divination Wizard 5 Knowledge/Trickery Cleric 1

Goals:
1. Share Wizard Spell Books to enhance spells known in both casters spell books.
2. Have healing word for quick pick ups
3. Be able to get bonuses to important skill checks
4. Have a good stealth skill and ways to enhance it
5. Use defensive spells like shield and the elemental resistance spell and blur to greatly lower incoming damage.

I think these 2 PC's could cover most challenges thrown their way. The PC's would have to risk long rests more often, but leomunds tiny hut helps a lot there. I think they have combat covered. I can't think of any glaring weakness for these 2 PC's.

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A double Wizard party would be extremely weak to Anti-magic field or Silence plus an effect to stop you moving (grapple, entangle), but it would be pretty mean of your DM do throw that kind of thing at a party of 2 wizards.

How about a druid with summon woodland beasts and a cavalier fighter to ride the summoned beast and tank while the druid casts spells? Or a cavalier riding a wild shapre druid directly.

Gavin O. said:

A double Wizard party would be extremely weak to Anti-magic field or Silence plus an effect to stop you moving (grapple, entangle), but it would be pretty mean of your DM do throw that kind of thing at a party of 2 wizards.

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When I gave XP to your post you hadn't included anything except anti-magic field. Silence isn't a very big issue as they can walk out of the zone with one movement action. The wizards can have counterspell or dispel magic and presumably won't both be in the range of the silence. They can have misty step as well. Things like grapple and entangle are pretty ineffective with that. Especially if you have ways of boosting skill checks so you can escape grapples with a well rolled skill check. These wizards in question do.