D&D 5E EK Half orc Shield and longsword

Adb0782 · Feb 27, 2019

Hello,
my EK is an Half orc with long sword and shield. Im actually thinking if its worth get the duelist or the defensive style fighting. I can use only the Player's handbook spells, so i actually took chill touch and minor illusion as cantrips(i can change one of this, but seems work), than shield, pretection from evil/good and Tasha's Hideous Laughter (also this i can change, but whats better?). We ll start on lv 3, i later would like to get as 2 spells lv hold person (the combo with sure crit its too juicy

) and mirror image (no concentration for me is better than blur), for get haste as lv 3 spell and fire shield spell lv 4 (or? without absorb elements this looks still more important). My stat are generated with dice throws, i was really lucky about that throws lol, i actually have:

STR 20
DEX 13
CON 16 (or 14, i can remember it wrong bcs i dont have the sheet with me)
INT 14
SAG 14
CHA 14

That said, i was thinking to get the dueling fighting style in the beginning, for dont suffer too much the fact to dont use a greatsword, but than i was thinking that, if im gonna always use the cantrips and war magic, its probably more usefull to get the defensive style fighting, as that +2 to damage have less effects bcs it dont work on spells. But again i have to fight with a +7 to hit vs a ranged spell attack with INT 14 and a totally +4 to hit (at starting lv). So, in this way is still better to use cantrips? (at higher levels). I can try to ask my DM to make me use BB (but i dont think he will agree anyway

), but if not, its better forget war magic except in some situational fight (as an attack cantrip) and so get the dueling fighting style and no malee cantrip? Or how could i build it with malee or damage dealer cantrips?

Also for the feats i have many doubt. Is war caster so important? with my cha i was even thinking to get magic initiate for get vicious mockery (too funny with an half orc and very usefull, unless the d4 damage that sucks) and faerie fire, lucky also is an option, mage slayer looks nice, resilent (wis) as well, shield master (maybe?), ritual caster (not pretty sure if its good). As u can see im kinda confused, i would like him tanky (we need a tank in the group), but anyway kinda effective also on damage (not as a champion of course).

Thanks everyone will help me to find out whats a good option for what i need.

FrogReaver · Feb 28, 2019

Adb0782 said:
Hello,
my EK is an Half orc with long sword and shield. Im actually thinking if its worth get the duelist or the defensive style fighting. I can use only the Player's handbook spells, so i actually took chill touch and minor illusion as cantrips(i can change one of this, but seems work), than shield, pretection from evil/good and Tasha's Hideous Laughter (also this i can change, but whats better?). We ll start on lv 3, i later would like to get as 2 spells lv hold person (the combo with sure crit its too juicy ) and mirror image (no concentration for me is better than blur), for get haste as lv 3 spell and fire shield spell lv 4 (or? without absorb elements this looks still more important). My stat are generated with dice throws, i was really lucky about that throws lol, i actually have:

STR 20
DEX 13
CON 16 (or 14, i can remember it wrong bcs i dont have the sheet with me)
INT 14
SAG 14
CHA 14

That said, i was thinking to get the dueling fighting style in the beginning, for dont suffer too much the fact to dont use a greatsword, but than i was thinking that, if im gonna always use the cantrips and war magic, its probably more usefull to get the defensive style fighting, as that +2 to damage have less effects bcs it dont work on spells. But again i have to fight with a +7 to hit vs a ranged spell attack with INT 14 and a totally +4 to hit (at starting lv). So, in this way is still better to use cantrips? (at higher levels). I can try to ask my DM to make me use BB (but i dont think he will agree anyway ), but if not, its better forget war magic except in some situational fight (as an attack cantrip) and so get the dueling fighting style and no malee cantrip? Or how could i build it with malee or damage dealer cantrips?

Also for the feats i have many doubt. Is war caster so important? with my cha i was even thinking to get magic initiate for get vicious mockery (too funny with an half orc and very usefull, unless the d4 damage that sucks) and faerie fire, lucky also is an option, mage slayer looks nice, resilent (wis) as well, shield master (maybe?), ritual caster (not pretty sure if its good). As u can see im kinda confused, i would like him tanky (we need a tank in the group), but anyway kinda effective also on damage (not as a champion of course).

Thanks everyone will help me to find out whats a good option for what i need.

#1 Hold Person only works on humanoids and not beasts/elementals and many of the other creatures you will likely encounter. While it's a great combo for humanoids, that's a pretty niche use case.
#2 Ignore War Magic. It's bad without the melee cantrips.
#3 Shield Spell is the best way to make him tanky (assuming DM let's you cast it while holding a sword and shield, DM may not allow this at all or may require warcaster feat or may be really nice and require neither)
#4 For a fighter Duelist adds a ton of damage. Unless you expect the DM literally will have nearly every enemy all the time focus on you then take duelist over defensive
#5 Ritual Caster really helps give you the out of combat caster feel with an EK. If all your worried about is combat then ignore it, but if not then it's very nice and fun. Somewhat less important if you don't have a wizard or bard in the party.
#6 You can take very few non-abjuration and non-evocation spells so pick those very carefully. You know very few spells in general so pick all your spells carefully.
#7 Action Surge allows you to double cast spells. For example you can cast Burning Hands Action Surge Burning hands for good AOE Damage when desired. You can also buff or debuff while using Action Surge and then attack. It's a very nice way to create combos that other characters can't.
#8 A number of encounters you will have an opportunity to buff before combat. Take a buff spell and do this when possible. I know debuffing is more fun when it works, but if you can have a buff up going into combat it's generally going to be more effective.
#9 Blur is much better than mirror image. You are a fighter. By level 7 you will only have a whopping 6 spell slots. You should plan to use maybe at most 2 spells per combat (unless you know your encounters per day will be extremely low). You should try to have those spells be spells that don't require your action in combat as you do quite good damage and trading your damage in a round for a spell is a much bigger tradeoff than a wizard has to consider.
#10 Tasha's Hideous Laughter is good. Protection from Good and evil is too situational unless there's just no other non-situational option. Other suggestions include Find Familiar (can use it to try and give advantage in combat or save it for scouting). Fog Cloud - never underestimate the cool things you can do with this spell. Expedious Retreat - casting this and making attacks turn 1 is much better than do nothing.
#11 Level 2 spells to consider: Misty step, same concept as expedious retreat but teleportation has some nice out of combat uses as well. Flaming Sphere is a great offensive spell for an Ek. You cast it once and then get to attack and bonus action have the sphere attack. Blur is great. A high ac and disadvantage on attacks means you rarely ever get hit. Suggestion is a great spell and can be attempted in combat as well. Phantasmal force with a creative player is one of the best debuff spells imaginable.

That said, anything you want to do shouldn't be a problem. Have fun!

Volund · Feb 28, 2019

What's better than Tasha's Hideous Laughter? Find Familiar! The other two you chose are perfect for an EK. Prot from Evil/Good is a great spell. Against the right creatures it gives you everything blur does and more for a lower level spell. And the list of creatures is works against is extensive: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. That's about 120 stat blocks from the MM. Everyone's game is different, but my EK uses this spell almost every session.

Blur is better than Mirror Image despite the concentration. The images are easy to hit and once you start running into monsters with multi-attack they will end them in a round or two. Since your strength is already 20 you have feats to spare so go ahead and take War Caster and don't worry about concentration. I wouldn't take hold person. They get a save at the end of their turn, your DC isn't that high.

I took the dueling FS for my half orc EK, who now is at 9th level. Your spells already make you a good tank without the need for Defense FS.

Think about taking the Resilient (Wisdom) feat once you have war caster. You can't be a tank if you get frightened easily and run away.

Adb0782 · Feb 28, 2019

FrogReaver said:
#1 Hold Person only works on humanoids and not beasts/elementals and many of the other creatures you will likely encounter. While it's a great combo for humanoids, that's a pretty niche use case.
#2 Ignore War Magic. It's bad without the melee cantrips.
#3 Shield Spell is the best way to make him tanky (assuming DM let's you cast it while holding a sword and shield, DM may not allow this at all or may require warcaster feat or may be really nice and require neither)
#4 For a fighter Duelist adds a ton of damage. Unless you expect the DM literally will have nearly every enemy all the time focus on you then take duelist over defensive
#5 Ritual Caster really helps give you the out of combat caster feel with an EK. If all your worried about is combat then ignore it, but if not then it's very nice and fun. Somewhat less important if you don't have a wizard or bard in the party.
#6 You can take very few non-abjuration and non-evocation spells so pick those very carefully. You know very few spells in general so pick all your spells carefully.
#7 Action Surge allows you to double cast spells. For example you can cast Burning Hands Action Surge Burning hands for good AOE Damage when desired. You can also buff or debuff while using Action Surge and then attack. It's a very nice way to create combos that other characters can't.
#8 A number of encounters you will have an opportunity to buff before combat. Take a buff spell and do this when possible. I know debuffing is more fun when it works, but if you can have a buff up going into combat it's generally going to be more effective.
#9 Blur is much better than mirror image. You are a fighter. By level 7 you will only have a whopping 6 spell slots. You should plan to use maybe at most 2 spells per combat (unless you know your encounters per day will be extremely low). You should try to have those spells be spells that don't require your action in combat as you do quite good damage and trading your damage in a round for a spell is a much bigger tradeoff than a wizard has to consider.
#10 Tasha's Hideous Laughter is good. Protection from Good and evil is too situational unless there's just no other non-situational option. Other suggestions include Find Familiar (can use it to try and give advantage in combat or save it for scouting). Fog Cloud - never underestimate the cool things you can do with this spell. Expedious Retreat - casting this and making attacks turn 1 is much better than do nothing.
#11 Level 2 spells to consider: Misty step, same concept as expedious retreat but teleportation has some nice out of combat uses as well. Flaming Sphere is a great offensive spell for an Ek. You cast it once and then get to attack and bonus action have the sphere attack. Blur is great. A high ac and disadvantage on attacks means you rarely ever get hit. Suggestion is a great spell and can be attempted in combat as well. Phantasmal force with a creative player is one of the best debuff spells imaginable.

That said, anything you want to do shouldn't be a problem. Have fun!

1) ok clear, hold person can not be the first choice as 2 lv spells, pick up first blur?
2) I asked her and yea, she'll probably allow me to use just booming blade, so i probably can use cantrips as well, is it from SCAG right? So i suppose now i need spells that dont use my bonus action, isnt it?
3) oh yea, strongest defensive spell of this book
4) ok
5) It's nice, but im anyway an half orc, maybe i dont want be too magical if its not necessary, thats other reason for which ill not multiclass wizard, that its worth for sure once u have the 2 or 3 attack.
6) For exemple? Which u would suggest me?
7) burning hands its cantrip? if not i can wait to get shatter or FB, we have a druid, a sorcerer, a bard a cleric and my EK in the group.
8) buff spell like? Bless? There r buffer cantrips i can use? Even using the magic initiate feat.
9) Yea, but once i get haste i should change it with something else? Both requires concentration
10) I read it many times but i dont get how take advantage on attack with the familiar, how it works? Fog cloud also its nice, i actually got protection from G/E bcs i already miss absorb elements that its the second defensive spell stronger of the game (after shield lol), but i can exchange it or Hideou laughter for the familiar if i understand how it works

PS now that i can use cantrips what feats i should choose? I already have 20 str so i can pick up 4 feats right? What about: war caster (as now i have malee cantrips, so if i understand your words now it worth it), resilent (wis), Lucky, mage slayer. In this order. Or i can add Magic initiate instead of lucky (putting it first in the list) for some buff or debuff spell (which one?) or in order to add shield of faith (but also this spell, after reach haste, it become useless and i cant change it). Something that fits better? Some more sinergies feats combo? The total damage output for turn its enouht?

EDIT: i understand how find familiar work. Much better than hideous laughter and much cooler. Im still kinda confused about the feats, Which i dont know if i can have better choices. The fighting style now that i can use BB is definitle duelist, its worth it.

Volund said:
What's better than Tasha's Hideous Laughter? Find Familiar! The other two you chose are perfect for an EK. Prot from Evil/Good is a great spell. Against the right creatures it gives you everything blur does and more for a lower level spell. And the list of creatures is works against is extensive: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. That's about 120 stat blocks from the MM. Everyone's game is different, but my EK uses this spell almost every session.

Blur is better than Mirror Image despite the concentration. The images are easy to hit and once you start running into monsters with multi-attack they will end them in a round or two. Since your strength is already 20 you have feats to spare so go ahead and take War Caster and don't worry about concentration. I wouldn't take hold person. They get a save at the end of their turn, your DC isn't that high.

I took the dueling FS for my half orc EK, who now is at 9th level. Your spells already make you a good tank without the need for Defense FS.

Think about taking the Resilient (Wisdom) feat once you have war caster. You can't be a tank if you get frightened easily and run away.

Yea but if u first hit them they save with disadvantage your next spell: hold person, if they fail: autocrit.

Which feats would you pick up in my place? War caster as first at lv4? than? Resilent (wis)? Than How do u feel magic slayer? Better Shield master? or lucky? Dont need to get better damage?

Volund · Mar 1, 2019

If you think it will be fun and cool to try to set up the Eldritch Strike hold person/action surge/critical hit combo then go for it. You're a long way from level 10 so it's not anything to worry about at this point. If that's your goal, the Alert feat could be a good to give you a better chance to strike first.

Mage Slayer is also good but I would save it for later around the time you get Arcane Charge. You need a way to get close to the caster for this feat to work.

Shield Master is also a good choice, but it depends on if you get a SCAG cantrip and how your DM rules. RAW, you can't attack with a SCAG cantrip and trigger the bonus action shove from Shield Master because you used the Cast A Spell action and not the Attack action.

I would still take War Caster and Resilient (Wis) at levels 4 and 6, but I am biased towards those feats because I hate failing saving throws. if you have booming blade, being able to cast it as a reaction with War Caster is very good.

FrogReaver · Mar 1, 2019

Volund said:
What's better than Tasha's Hideous Laughter? Find Familiar! The other two you chose are perfect for an EK. Prot from Evil/Good is a great spell. Against the right creatures it gives you everything blur does and more for a lower level spell. And the list of creatures is works against is extensive: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. That's about 120 stat blocks from the MM. Everyone's game is different, but my EK uses this spell almost every session.

Blur is better than Mirror Image despite the concentration. The images are easy to hit and once you start running into monsters with multi-attack they will end them in a round or two. Since your strength is already 20 you have feats to spare so go ahead and take War Caster and don't worry about concentration. I wouldn't take hold person. They get a save at the end of their turn, your DC isn't that high.

I took the dueling FS for my half orc EK, who now is at 9th level. Your spells already make you a good tank without the need for Defense FS.

Think about taking the Resilient (Wisdom) feat once you have war caster. You can't be a tank if you get frightened easily and run away.

Familiar can be killed easily. Thus it's a far cry from auto advantage on attacks in combat. However, it's out of combat uses are many. I like familiars, I just think they are overrated for combat.

FrogReaver · Mar 1, 2019

You get so few spells known. Take ones you can use in many scenarios.

For the first half of the game you will know one non-abjuration spell. For the 2nd half of the game you will know 2. If you finally make it beyond that you may know more. You'll know 3-4 spells in the early game and 5-8 spells in the late game.

PHB Spells abjuration and evocation spells
Suggested Level 1 Spells (pick 2):
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Projection from Evil and Good
Shield
Thunderwave

Suggested Level 2 Spells:
Continual Flame
Shatter

Every other spell you might want to take from abjuration is likely not good unless you can ritual cast it.

Recommended Other Level 1 Spells:
Find Familiar
Expedious Retreat
Fog Cloud
Charm Person

Recommended Other Level 2 Spells:
Blur
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Invisibility
Misty Step
Phantasmal Force
Rope Trick
Suggestion

In short, you end up with 3 spells you really want, shield + the 2 non abjuration/evocation spells. Then you end up with a bunch of spells that aren't very good. Your goal is to find ways to make those abjuration/evocation spells useful or take some very situational stuff that I didn't list above like arcane lock or take some ritual spells that you cant cast as rituals which are generally pretty bad spells when used that way.

Adb0782 · Mar 1, 2019

FrogReaver said:
You get so few spells known. Take ones you can use in many scenarios.

For the first half of the game you will know one non-abjuration spell. For the 2nd half of the game you will know 2. If you finally make it beyond that you may know more. You'll know 3-4 spells in the early game and 5-8 spells in the late game.

PHB Spells abjuration and evocation spells
Suggested Level 1 Spells (pick 2):
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Projection from Evil and Good
Shield
Thunderwave

Suggested Level 2 Spells:
Continual Flame
Shatter

Every other spell you might want to take from abjuration is likely not good unless you can ritual cast it.

Recommended Other Level 1 Spells:
Find Familiar
Expedious Retreat
Fog Cloud
Charm Person

Recommended Other Level 2 Spells:
Blur
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Invisibility
Misty Step
Phantasmal Force
Rope Trick
Suggestion

In short, you end up with 3 spells you really want, shield + the 2 non abjuration/evocation spells. Then you end up with a bunch of spells that aren't very good. Your goal is to find ways to make those abjuration/evocation spells useful or take some very situational stuff that I didn't list above like arcane lock or take some ritual spells that you cant cast as rituals which are generally pretty bad spells when used that way.

Hi, well I actually choose shield, find familiar and protection from evil and good, she added me to use BB so i have my malee cantrip. As first feat I choosed magic adept and I picked up shield of faith (we r now lv 4 from yesterday ). At lv 6 ill pick up war caster as i need to free my BA from lv 7, than lv 8 ill pick up resilient (wis) and next, having booming blade, I was thinking about mobility. Than maybe mage slayer. What you think about it?

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Adb0782 said:
Hi, well I actually choose shield, find familiar and protection from evil and good, she added me to use BB so i have my malee cantrip. As first feat I choosed magic adept and I picked up shield of faith (we r now lv 4 from yesterday ). At lv 6 ill pick up war caster as i need to free my BA from lv 7, than lv 8 ill pick up resilient (wis) and next, having booming blade, I was thinking about mobility. Than maybe mage slayer. What you think about it?

Mobile is interesting. I'm not sure I'd choose it but it's an interesting choice. Mage Hunter isn't very good IMO. Fighting mages isn't super common in my experience and so its beneftis rarely see the light of day.

I recommend lucky. It helps on really important saves and can also be used some out of combat. I want to through sentinel in the mix. With your defensive buffs it makes enemies want to focus even more on you which in general is a good thing. Alert is also a feat worth mentioning. Going first is a big advantage and thus really helps you do that.

Adb0782 · Mar 3, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Mobile is interesting. I'm not sure I'd choose it but it's an interesting choice. Mage Hunter isn't very good IMO. Fighting mages isn't super common in my experience and so its beneftis rarely see the light of day.

I recommend lucky. It helps on really important saves and can also be used some out of combat. I want to through sentinel in the mix. With your defensive buffs it makes enemies want to focus even more on you which in general is a good thing. Alert is also a feat worth mentioning. Going first is a big advantage and thus really helps you do that.

well, so i should build something like:

- Magic initiate (i alredy took it for shield of faith)
- War caster (from lv 7 i must have it if i wanna free my bonus action)
- Lucky (it helps also about saves on wis, less than resilent, but it helps on many other things too)
- mobile or alert (still not sure)
- resilent or sentinel (still not sure)

But that last 2 will come anyway very late in the game, so the more i think is done