Want to Playtest Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (V5)?

Am I the only one who thought about how much dead space (no pun intended) on every page of the PDF? The margins on either side come out to about 40% of the page width. 48 pages should be something like 30, or less.

Arnix said:

Am I the only one who thought about how much dead space (no pun intended) on every page of the PDF? The margins on either side come out to about 40% of the page width. 48 pages should be something like 30, or less.

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It's a playtest document. It hasn't gone through any sort of layout. I've seen some playtest documents that are just solid blocks of text with hardly even any paragraph breaks.

Arnix said:

Am I the only one who thought about how much dead space (no pun intended) on every page of the PDF? The margins on either side come out to about 40% of the page width. 48 pages should be something like 30, or less.

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I am grateful about that. I really really want an easy-to-read text this days (in a graphic design sense), and a condensed text with condensed paragraphs with few blanks and a lot of concepts in it makes me run away.

Having a Classic and New World of Darkness line running conjunctionally with each other is a terrible marketing plan, so it makes sense to seperate the two. Moreover, I think the NWoD/CoD titles are beginning to reach the end of their cycle anyway, in all honesty. For those that are NWoD/CoD fans, it's probably worth noting that these new Vampire rules seem to be taking ideas quite liberally from both lines anyway.

I'll try to get this play tested over the next month, but my thoughts on the initial scan through is that I like the simple core mechanic, which is akin to a coin toss with a fixed target number of 6 for each dice. This is my personal preference anyway and the way I've always run it. The task difficulty is easily set by just the number of successes, it's easier to 'take half' and run the game diceless as necessary, and it's actually possible to use any dice type if the probability for each dice is 50%. Its also better to skip out on the whole Rule of 1/10/Botch nonsense which was mathematically dodgy in terms of the probabilities and beyond that, simply getting no successes is basically a critical failure now anyway.

I like the simplification in the Ability lists too. Simply having the three (Physical/Mental/Social) Attributes with specialities is cool, although I'd open up the list of specialities beyond the previous Strength, Dexterity, etc lists they had before. They don't need more stats than that and I think it looks like the delineation is for prioritising 4, 3 and 2. The skill lists are pretty awful though. Why introduce 'Dodge' again? It's not a real skill, adds too many combat skills to the sheet (implicating a combat heavy game) alongside Brawl, Melee and Firearms (why is this listed as a Mental skill?!), and flatly adds unnecessary complication to the combat system. In my view they should merge Dodge as part of Athletics (as in V20), and combine Brawl and Melee too into an 'Aggression' or 'Violence' skill. In a modern night setting, seriously, why differentiate between brawling and hand held weapons?

On the subject of the combat system, I wish they'd streamline it further. Scrap Initiative rolls and replace it with nominated actions (as used in Marvel Heroic Roleplaying). Rolling Initiative is a throwback to D&D, which adds bookkeeping to the action sequencing. If you simply had players resolving their actions with contested rolls, used fixed damage (based on weapon type/Discipline score +1 per two net attack successes), then nominating the next player to resolve their actions in turn, it streamlines everything substantially.

Anyway, first casual flick through. Haven't really tried out the personality mechanics - although I note the use of Virtue/Vice from NWoD rather than Nature/Demeanour from Classic. To me, the issue here is that Nature/Demeanour supported the "Masquerade" motif in the original, insofar that everyone was holding down a mask of sorts.

Abstruse said:

According to Ian Watson, they have the right to create works for both World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness as part of their license, without restriction to edition. So Onyx Path can, if they choose, start publishing V5 stuff as soon as it's released until the license is renegotiated.

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Thanks for the clarification!

I suspect they'll do some supplements at least. The main thing is, the new editions' publication (at least Vampire's) won't happen through Onyx Path as a licenced product, as the 20ths happened.

Winghorn said:

I must admit, I'm not really familiar with VtM and it's setting, so when I was skimming the PDFs the ISIS stuff in the playtest scenario kind of made me do a double-take. I get that some people want something more real-world-ey but to be honest it puts me off.

Different people come to roleplaying for different things, I suppose.

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Emphasis added. Yeah, that's the thing. NWoD distanced itself from the real world and there are a lot of people who like that style better. However, there are a lot of people, who as you put it "want something more real-world-ey", like me. I think that was always an important part of WoD, the strong real-world connections to mythologies, subcultures, events and so on and I'm happy they want to do it. Yeah, those things will push some buttons for some people and sure there will be missteps, but still, I like it and also there are plenty of games for more distanced settings and playstyles, if you don't want "real-world baggage" in your rpg.

TrippyHippy said:

Having a Classic and New World of Darkness line running conjunctionally with each other is a terrible marketing plan, so it makes sense to seperate the two. Moreover, I think the NWoD/CoD titles are beginning to reach the end of their cycle anyway, in all honesty. For those that are NWoD/CoD fans, it's probably worth noting that these new Vampire rules seem to be taking ideas quite liberally from both lines anyway.

I'll try to get this play tested over the next month, but my thoughts on the initial scan through is that I like the simple core mechanic, which is akin to a coin toss with a fixed target number of 6 for each dice. This is my personal preference anyway and the way I've always run it. The task difficulty is easily set by just the number of successes, it's easier to 'take half' and run the game diceless as necessary, and it's actually possible to use any dice type if the probability for each dice is 50%. Its also better to skip out on the whole Rule of 1/10/Botch nonsense which was mathematically dodgy in terms of the probabilities and beyond that, simply getting no successes is basically a critical failure now anyway.

I like the simplification in the Ability lists too. Simply having the three (Physical/Mental/Social) Attributes with specialities is cool, although I'd open up the list of specialities beyond the previous Strength, Dexterity, etc lists they had before. They don't need more stats than that and I think it looks like the delineation is for prioritising 4, 3 and 2. The skill lists are pretty awful though. Why introduce 'Dodge' again? It's not a real skill, adds too many combat skills to the sheet (implicating a combat heavy game) alongside Brawl, Melee and Firearms (why is this listed as a Mental skill?!), and flatly adds unnecessary complication to the combat system. In my view they should merge Dodge as part of Athletics (as in V20), and combine Brawl and Melee too into an 'Aggression' or 'Violence' skill. In a modern night setting, seriously, why differentiate between brawling and hand held weapons?

On the subject of the combat system, I wish they'd streamline it further. Scrap Initiative rolls and replace it with nominated actions (as used in Marvel Heroic Roleplaying). Rolling Initiative is a throwback to D&D, which adds bookkeeping to the action sequencing. If you simply had players resolving their actions with contested rolls, used fixed damage (based on weapon type/Discipline score +1 per two net attack successes), then nominating the next player to resolve their actions in turn, it streamlines everything substantially.

Anyway, first casual flick through. Haven't really tried out the personality mechanics - although I note the use of Virtue/Vice from NWoD rather than Nature/Demeanour from Classic. To me, the issue here is that Nature/Demeanour supported the "Masquerade" motif in the original, insofar that everyone was holding down a mask of sorts.

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Ugh. See, that's how different we are, really. I wouldn't want any of the things you do and I actually hope things will get more complex and detailed in later playtests. It's just too much simplification to my tastes, but it's an okay start.

PMárk said:

Ugh. See, that's how different we are, really. I wouldn't want any of the things you do and I actually hope things will get more complex and detailed in later playtests. It's just too much simplification to my tastes, but it's an okay start.

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Well, there are some gamers who look at game mechanics and say "this is quite complicated!" and those that say "this is not complicated enough!". Some specifics would be interesting though, and I would suggest that the original Vampire was trying to make a 'simple and elegant' system without much complication as it's intent. The complexity seems to have been added over the years.

For me though, I think the principles I'd like are to not make the combat system overemphasised in gameplay. They've got a very limited list of skills, so it makes no sense to use up a load of slots on things like 'Dodge' or 'Melee' in my view. There is currently no Drive or Science skills included on the lists at all, for example.

So as an active V20, and M20 player I like the new rules (what there is of them)...well mostly.

I started in the 90's playing vampire and were wolf...when the NwoD came out I was an early adaptor but also an early quitter...we went several years not doing any WoD...when the V20 stuff came out it brought me and a small part of my group back in. I do have to say I love concept and story of Owod, but I did miss some of the newer rules...

So V5 seems to have kept the cam clans intact (as not a big fan of NwoD crunch I say good). I see that the disciplines are pretty cut and paste (except the physical ones became more interesting). I like the NwoD way of everyone having different health levels they brought over, and I assume that when merits and flaws come up we will see 'small' and 'large' players loose or gain a level, and maybe a thick skin too.

I like the new 3 attribute system (although wonder what character creation will look like). The willpower/composure break down is a cool idea.

combat is both better and worse. I like the 2 types of damage superficial and aggravated (I don't know why that's not lethal) that are a / and an X that fill the boxes. I'm not sure if I like skipping soak rolls, but I do get that will speed up combats... but the 'counter punch' thing were a defender can damage the attacker seems to be really dangerus...


lets look at an example combat.
Lucas and Devon are going to fight. Both have swords (go with me on this) that are +2. Lucas has physical 3 (dexterity) and Melee 3 (swords). Devon has physical 2 (stamina) and Melee 1... Devon is going down super fast.

round 1, both are declaring an attack lucas goes first... so Lucas rolls 8d10 and counts up 5 successes, and Devon rolls 3 dice and gets all 3 success.. so he takes 4 damage (aggravated), then on Devons turn he tries to counter attack, and rolls 3 dice and gets 2 successes, Lucas rolls his 8 dice and gets 6 successes, so Devon for trying to attack takes 8 damage... Devon needs to pull an Indiana Jones and shoot Lucas.

Now eliminating part of the Owod death spireal of -1, -2,-5 dice does mean maybe I am being over dramatic...I think this needs to be tested, but I'm weary of combat.


Then comes the hunger dice. I love it... one of the biggest complaints I had with vampire was for all the talk of blood most games fell into very blasé book keeping. It also stops the 'oh I saw forever night so all my vampires have fridges full of cows blood in wine bottles' that I felt was all too common, or the 'blood bank'.

I also am super happy we did away with humanity. I disliked the entire concept (back in 97 I was saying 'humans don't have much humanity by the rules') and the idea of alternat roads/paths always felt cheap. The same way alignment always was weird the idea of humanity was too. I like the virtues and vices better.


I only read the rules not the adventure so far, but I will comment on what has been said here. I know that it may be jarring to see Issis or some other real world group used, but I think it can be ok...now since I haven't read it I'm totally not defending it. Its all to easy to miss use or abuse real world groups and names too.

GMforPowergamers said:

combat is both better and worse. I like the 2 types of damage superficial and aggravated (I don't know why that's not lethal) that are a / and an X that fill the boxes. I'm not sure if I like skipping soak rolls, but I do get that will speed up combats... but the 'counter punch' thing were a defender can damage the attacker seems to be really dangerus...

I also am super happy we did away with humanity. I disliked the entire concept (back in 97 I was saying 'humans don't have much humanity by the rules') and the idea of alternat roads/paths always felt cheap. The same way alignment always was weird the idea of humanity was too. I like the virtues and vices better.

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I am going to have to run a game before I'm really able to analyse combat fully, but do you feel that there is a need to have seperate skills for Dodge (which was removed in V20), Brawl and Melee? I really have never seen why someone who knows how to fight would somehow go all to sea if someone put a weapon in his hand. Dodge is a waste of a skill slot, as it's implicit as a manoeuvre in Brawl/Melee/Athletics anyway. Notably, there isn't enough room for Firearms or Drive as Physical skills in this new list.

With regards to Virtue/Vice vs Nature/Demeanour, my objection is simply that Nature/Demeanour was thematically tied to the idea of a 'Masquerade' - where everybody is hiding their true selves. I actually, think Natures could be designed through a Virtue/Vice combo anyway though, if people prefer the mechanics (which I agree are smoother in some ways).