D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

Dualazi said:

Kinda surprised this thread is still up though, I figured it would have been nuked from orbit for being related to politics.

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This thread has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with ideology.

Politics: the activities associated with the governance of a country or area, especially the debate between parties having power.

Ideology: a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

These are completely different subjects. One sometimes informs the other, but they are separate in a very real way. Once, by definition, involves power, authority and governance. The other is philosophy. Philosophy =/= politics.

tombowings said:

You'd be surprised by the things I've found in the Tower of London.

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Probably.

tombowings said:

While working on my master's thesis, I even found prop lists scribbled on old bits of parchment for Shakespeare's plays at the Globe. Because people were in the habit of writing letters back then, many of which are addressed to lovers and mistresses, I would be surprised if you couldn't find something to prove your point in one archive or another, should if have existed.

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The theater. So, among a literate crowd who were engaged in earning a living off of being able to write stories and read scripts. I'm guessing your average, everyday person was far less likely to be literate, and far less likely to know people outside of the community they lived in (meaning they could actually see and talk to them instead of having to send letters back and forth).

Also, I'm not going to search archives to "win" an internet argument. I take care of an elderly father who can't care for himself anymore. Cooking his meals, bathing him, and changing his diaper certainly takes precedence over doing non-recreational research that I'm not obligated to do.

Furthermore, not all letters get preserved. Paper is a (relatively) fragile substance, prone to being ruined by moisture, and being repurposed for kindling, especially in cold weather and when in the possession of people who don't see that paper as holy (like a bible), an important part of their job (like a prop list), or as art (like a book or play script).

tombowings said:

If it wasn't a big deal and wasn't causing any drama, the letters wouldn't have been purposely destroyed, would they?

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Has anyone said it wouldn't cause any drama? Families are very good at taking a lot of very ordinary things and turning them into drama factories. I've personally seen the seating arrangement around a Thanksgiving day table cause a four hour argument and resentment that reared its ugly head in proceeding years.

Hussar said:

What's the problem with just going to the blacksmith and buying a sword and the blacksmith happens to be gay? How is that "propaganda"?

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More to the point: how is it relevant, or ever likely to become so?

[MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] points out - quite correctly - that in (most) movies a character's sexuality is more likely to be relevant than its religion. I'd suggest D&D is the opposite: an NPC's religion is far more likely to be or become relevant than its sexuality.

As for PCs...

tombowings said:

Why not encourage homosexual PCs, then, since they're the heroes of the story?

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...the sexuality of any played character is left entirely up to the player.

Which means that in the party I currently DM there are as PCs:

A lesbian Dwarf (Fighter)
A straight female Human (Illusionist)
A female Human whose sexuality remains unknown (Wizard, brand new to the group)
A female Elf who is, if anything, trending asexual (Nature Cleric)
A straight male Elf (War Cleric) but note he's married to (and has had a child with) a Human female
A male Elf whose sexuality is...well, I'm not sure, but given his religion* (he's a Nature Cleric to a god of sheer chaos) would most likely fall into the "tri-sexual" category - as in, try anything
A Gnome who started out as a gay male then got hit with a gender-change effect so is now a straight female (Cleric)
A female Elf whose only role-played relationship was with another female (so either bi or lesbian, not sure) (Thief)

* - ironically enough; and yes even though there's 4 Clerics in the party sex still comes up way more often than religion

Lan-"maybe it's because sex is more fun"-efan

If including queer characters without a specific story purpose goes against the "standard source material", aka Medieval Europe, so do:

• any faith apart from Christianity
• female characters of influence without very good backstory reasons
• female priests
• ignoring slavery as a common-place practice (feudal serfdom)
• ignoring ability score modifiers based on sex

This list is not exhaustive.

Lanefan said:

A lesbian Dwarf (Fighter)
A straight female Human (Illusionist)
A female Human whose sexuality remains unknown (Wizard, brand new to the group)
A female Elf who is, if anything, trending asexual (Nature Cleric)
A straight male Elf (War Cleric) but note he's married to (and has had a child with) a Human female
A male Elf whose sexuality is...well, I'm not sure, but given his religion* (he's a Nature Cleric to a god of sheer chaos) would most likely fall into the "tri-sexual" category - as in, try anything
A Gnome who started out as a gay male then got hit with a gender-change effect so is now a straight female (Cleric)
A female Elf whose only role-played relationship was with another female (so either bi or lesbian, not sure) (Thief)

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Huh. Maybe it's just my table style, but I know infinitely less about the PCs' romantic and/or sexual preferences than I do about their dietary preferences.

Teemu said:

If including queer characters without a specific story purpose goes against the "standard source material", aka Medieval Europe, so do:

• any faith apart from Christianity
• female characters of influence without very good backstory reasons
• female priests
• ignoring slavery as a common-place practice (feudal serfdom)
• ignoring ability score modifiers based on sex

This list is not exhaustive.

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Oh! And now we have grist for an edition war!

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to have paladins of any race besides human or Silvanesti. ;-)

MechaPilot said:

Probably.

The theater. So, among a literate crowd who were engaged in earning a living off of being able to write stories and read scripts. I'm guessing your average, everyday person was far less likely to be literate, and far less likely to know people outside of the community they lived in (meaning they could actually see and talk to them instead of having to send letters back and forth).

Also, I'm not going to search archives to "win" an internet argument. I take care of an elderly father who can't care for himself anymore. Cooking his meals, bathing him, and changing his diaper certainly takes precedence over doing non-recreational research that I'm not obligated to do.

Furthermore, not all letters get preserved. Paper is a (relatively) fragile substance, prone to being ruined by moisture, and being repurposed for kindling, especially in cold weather and when in the possession of people who don't see that paper as holy (like a bible), an important part of their job (like a prop list), or as art (like a book or play script).

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I found this in the collection at the Institute of Education Sciences, in which the author states that "Graff states, for example, that the literacy rate for London males in the fifteenth century was 'around 40%' (1991, p. 97)." It little lazy research, because I didn't look Graff's own text, but it should be sufficient for our purposes.

A 40% literacy rate among males in the 1400 is a massive chunk of the population and while letters do get destroyed, a surprising number remain. As the printing press continues to make literacy increasingly common, I expect that number rose dramatically in the 16th century.

Now, I understand that you probably don't have the opportunity to do the research yourself, I fail to find your argument that no evidence will have remained unconvincing.

MechaPilot said:

Has anyone said it wouldn't cause any drama? Families are very good at taking a lot of very ordinary things and turning them into drama factories. I've personally seen the seating arrangement around a Thanksgiving day table cause a four hour argument and resentment that reared its ugly head in proceeding years.

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Which is entirely my point. Even little things get blown out of proportion. There is no way something as taboo as sodomy in the middle ages is not going to cause conflict in one way or another, and would logically have some consequence with regards to the PCs interactions with the LGBT community.

Hemlock said:

Huh. Maybe it's just my table style, but I know infinitely less about the PCs' romantic and/or sexual preferences than I do about their dietary preferences.

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Sex and-or romance has always been a significant element of our games, and I think they're the better for it.

Lan-"the party that sleeps together works together"-efan

Hemlock said:

Oh! And now we have grist for an edition war!

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Wow - edition war, religious argument, and sexuality fight all at once?

Hold my beer...

Teemu said:

If including queer characters without a specific story purpose goes against the "standard source material", aka Medieval Europe, so do:

• any faith apart from Christianity
• female characters of influence without very good backstory reasons
• female priests
• ignoring slavery as a common-place practice (feudal serfdom)
• ignoring ability score modifiers based on sex

This list is not exhaustive.

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In some campaigns, sure - including Forgotten Realms, the setting in which all published adventures take place. I fail to see a longstanding tradition of LGBT acceptance and homosexuality in the Realms, however.