Spell Points and Problem Spells

Xeviat · Jun 13, 2019

Hi everyone. I love spellpoint systems. That's why I liked the Psion so much in 3E and 4E. Sure, there's a bit more bookkeeping, but I like MP better than spell slots.

I'm looking to use spell points for my next game. I'm wanting to ID potential problem spells early and come up with solutions for them.

The first I see are low level defensive spells. Defense scales naturally with levels, unless that defense is something like temp hp. Shield right now is okay because you only have so many 1st level spell slots before you have to start burning higher level slots. In a spell point system, Shield would keep costing 2 sp forever, and eat into their spell pool a lot less.

Interestingly, in the Mystic playtest, their power equivalent of shield granted +X AC, where X was equal to the amount of points spent. This might be the direction shield needs to go in in a spellpoint system.

What are other spells you might want to keep an eye on?

Mort · Jun 13, 2019

Xeviat said:
Hi everyone. I love spellpoint systems. That's why I liked the Psion so much in 3E and 4E. Sure, there's a bit more bookkeeping, but I like MP better than spell slots.

I'm looking to use spell points for my next game. I'm wanting to ID potential problem spells early and come up with solutions for them.

The first I see are low level defensive spells. Defense scales naturally with levels, unless that defense is something like temp hp. Shield right now is okay because you only have so many 1st level spell slots before you have to start burning higher level slots. In a spell point system, Shield would keep costing 2 sp forever, and eat into their spell pool a lot less.

Interestingly, in the Mystic playtest, their power equivalent of shield granted +X AC, where X was equal to the amount of points spent. This might be the direction shield needs to go in in a spellpoint system.

What are other spells you might want to keep an eye on?

Absorb Elements - exactly the same reasons you listed for shield. At a flat 2 sp, it's beyond amazing.

Fenris-77 · Jun 13, 2019

Really, any spell third level or lower that gets a consistent sky blue rating in the Class guides should probably at least be glanced at. Some of the spell levels have less go-to obvious choices, and in a spell point environment the inclination, as you point out, is going to be to spam effective low level spells. There aren't that many that jump out at me though.

At first level that could include: Shield (I agree) plus maybe Sleep/Hideous Laughter (low/higher levels) *edit* yeah, Absorb Elements for sure

Second Level: Darkness, Suggestion if your doing SPs for Warlocks maybe Shadow of Moil too.

The two in bold I can see getting a lot of use cast at 2nd level. Not sure how to fix that though. Maybe it doesn't need to be fixed, IDK. Having a low level mage casting sleep 8 or more times a day could be a real pain though, so maybe it does.

Harzel · Jun 14, 2019

Xeviat said:
Hi everyone. I love spellpoint systems. That's why I liked the Psion so much in 3E and 4E. Sure, there's a bit more bookkeeping, but I like MP better than spell slots.

I have never understood this idea. With spell points, you have to keep track of one number; with spell slots you need to keep track of as many as levels of spells that you can cast. What am I missing?

(Sorry for taking this off-topic.)

MechaPilot · Jun 14, 2019

I currently run spell points instead of slots for every caster class except warlock (because they need slots to retain their unique character), and I haven't run into any issues yet. I even run a modified version of the DMG variant in that I don't limit spells of 6th level or higher to once per day. The only significant differences I've run into are that SP are easier to track than slots, and that casters have greater flexibility of resources than they do with slots. However, neither of these differences approaches the level of a problem.

Also, if the Shield spell is problematic for you, may I introduce you to a spell from my homebrew setting:

Discutio
2nd Level Evocation

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a creature within 120 feet of you casts the Shield spell.
Range: 120 feet.
Components: S, V
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard

You summon a sudden burst of magical force that shatters an opponent's Shield spell.

Harzel · Jun 14, 2019

Xeviat said:
Hi everyone. I love spellpoint systems. That's why I liked the Psion so much in 3E and 4E. Sure, there's a bit more bookkeeping, but I like MP better than spell slots.

I'm looking to use spell points for my next game. I'm wanting to ID potential problem spells early and come up with solutions for them.

The first I see are low level defensive spells. Defense scales naturally with levels, unless that defense is something like temp hp. Shield right now is okay because you only have so many 1st level spell slots before you have to start burning higher level slots. In a spell point system, Shield would keep costing 2 sp forever, and eat into their spell pool a lot less.

Interestingly, in the Mystic playtest, their power equivalent of shield granted +X AC, where X was equal to the amount of points spent. This might be the direction shield needs to go in in a spellpoint system.

What are other spells you might want to keep an eye on?

I've been using spell points in my campaign for several years now. My opinion at this point is that at mid and higher levels, the spell point maximum should be less what is given in the DMG. I haven't thought hard about exactly how much at which levels, but I'd probably try starting the reduction perhaps as early as 7th level, and no later than 9th. To me, at least, that seems more manageable than trying to figure out which individual spells to patch up and how.

EDIT: And to echo [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION], while spell points definitely give casters more flexibility, and so, ultimately, a bit more power, it hasn't broken the game, even though, yeah, the wizard doesn't think twice about using Shield.

MechaPilot · Jun 14, 2019

Harzel said:
I've been using spell points in my campaign for several years now. My opinion at this point is that at mid and higher levels, the spell point maximum should be less what is given in the DMG. I haven't thought hard about exactly how much at which levels, but I'd probably try starting the reduction perhaps as early as 7th level, and no later than 9th. To me, at least, that seems more manageable than trying to figure out which individual spells to patch up and how.

EDIT: And to echo @MechaPilot, while spell points definitely give casters more flexibility, and so, ultimately, a bit more power, it hasn't broken the game, even though, yeah, the wizard doesn't think twice about using Shield.

Another option would be to alter the SP cost for the spell levels. As it is, we have some level increases going up by 1 point while others go up by 2 points. I'd experiment with making each level increase a 2 point increase before tinkering with the totals.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

I'm likely going to be giving full casters 2 spell points per level but having them refresh on a short rest, but that's part of a greater effort to retool things. I'm not sure how I'll deal with the Warlock.

Harzel · Jun 15, 2019

MechaPilot said:
Another option would be to alter the SP cost for the spell levels. As it is, we have some level increases going up by 1 point while others go up by 2 points. I'd experiment with making each level increase a 2 point increase before tinkering with the totals.

Ok, can you say anything about why you think that is a better approach? That alters the relative costs of different levels of spells, which, to me, seems like a more fundamental change than lowering the totals.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

Harzel said:
Ok, can you say anything about why you think that is a better approach? That alters the relative costs of different levels of spells, which, to me, seems like a more fundamental change than lowering the totals.

The costs for the low level spells line up well for the expected damage guidelines the DMG presented and the PHB ignored. I like the costs of the spells.

Spell Points and Problem Spells

Xeviat

Hero

Mort

Legend

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

Harzel

Adventurer

MechaPilot

Explorer

Harzel

Adventurer

MechaPilot

Explorer

Xeviat

Hero

Harzel

Adventurer

Xeviat

Hero

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