D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

Zardnaar · Dec 17, 2018

Bitbrain said:
*reads entirety of thread*

Having played a Sorcerer up to 14th level, what they really need isn't more spells. It needs more sorcery points.

Sorcerers aren't good blasters?
*snorts* my very first 5e character was a sorcerer who doubled as both the party buffer and the blaster, and let me tell you, I was frighteningly effective in both roles.

Is there a more difficult learning curve to the Sorcerer compared to the Wizard?
Yes, absolutely. Until I reached 9th level I relied heavily on a Wand of Fireballs whenever I wanted to be the blaster.
Keep in mind that it was my first time ever playing 5e, and that I had unintentionally picked the hardest class to master.
After I advanced to 9th level, I had figured out the class mechanics and didn't need to rely on the wand nearly so much.

The Sorcerer reads like a Specialist?
Maybe I missed something when I first looked over the sorcerer, but I NEVER got the impression that the sorcerer was meant to be a specialist spellcaster.
In fact, my impression has always been that it was meant to be a sort of bare-bones generalist spellcaster, while the wizard was the specialist.
Seriously, the wizard sub-classes found in the Players Handbook are each focused on one of the eight "schools" of magic!

Wands oif Lightning and firebals are very very good in 5E. You were probably so good at buffing due to that wand as in effect you just picked up a heap of spell slots equivalent to 20+ metamagic points.

UngeheuerLich · Dec 17, 2018

A good analysis of the sorcerer´s advantages. We had a (storm) sorcerer that actually focussed on double concentration levitate. A useful thing to have.

Gadget · Dec 17, 2018

I'm not sure about the raw power of the Sorcerer, but I am more convinced that they require more system mastery than average to be effective, and could use more of the features that make them unique (meta magic & Sorc points). Only having two meta magic options for most of your career kind of hurts. It would be nice to be able to recover a sorcery point or two on a short rest, but that would probably break the conversion between sorcery points and spell slots.

Chaosmancer · Dec 19, 2018

CapnZapp said:
Oh, don't get me wrong, the sorcerer class design has plenty of problems. I'd put the PHB design on my top 3 list of weakest class designs: one subclass is useless and the other is only good if you make the correct build choices, and neither allows any real customization to cater to the multitude of "sorcerer" or "warlock" concepts that people have.

That said, the fact it can be made to output some serious hurt (to an extent few other classes can even compete) is what I'm saying is enough for some, many in fact, but still not all, tables.

Really?

I've seen Warlocks, Fighters, Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians mentioned as incredibly high damage dealing classes. I've personally seen Clerics dishing out 50 or more damage a round (Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and Booming Blade on a Quarterstaff with the cleric d8 added to it).

Sorcerer has never been one I've seen people say topped the damage charts. Not by a long shot.

Zardnaar · Dec 19, 2018

Chaosmancer said:
Really?

I've seen Warlocks, Fighters, Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians mentioned as incredibly high damage dealing classes. I've personally seen Clerics dishing out 50 or more damage a round (Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and Booming Blade on a Quarterstaff with the cleric d8 added to it).

Sorcerer has never been one I've seen people say topped the damage charts. Not by a long shot.

Seen a Sorlock in action? Makes warlock cry lol.

Sorcerers are decent at AoE damage comes online a bit earlier than invoker. DPR is nothing fantastic though for a single class one.

Mistwell · Dec 19, 2018

MostlyHarmless42 said:
The reason why optimizes dont rate the feat highly is because it requires a character to use the respective ability score for ritual casting of the class they pick a list from. Wizards have the best list for spell selection for the feat, but use Intelligence, forcing the sorcerer to need to boost a second ability score for casting that would otherwise be "useless" from an optimization standpoint.

1) Some optimizers rate it very high and will tell you other optimizers are underrating it. Treantmonk for example rates it very high.
2) The ability score is pretty meaningless actually. They are not used for the ritual spells. For example, here are your typical Wizard ritual spells: Alarm, Comprehend languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, maybe Rary's Telepathic Bond. Which of these need Intelligence? I am pretty sure zero. You're not attacking with a ritual spell typically, and no save is usually needed, so...what are you referring to that you need a second ability score? In fact I think literally only Contact Other Plane requires Intelligence for a Wizard ritual spell.

Ritual caster is a GREAT feat. I am considering it for my Fighter, to get a familiar, comprehend languages, and tiny hut. This would increase my party's scouting, communication, and ability to safely rest - all things we badly need. Intelligence is my dump stat. Who cares, it's not needed at all.

Zardnaar · Dec 19, 2018

Mistwell said:
1) Some optimizers rate it very high and will tell you other optimizers are underrating it. Treantmonk for example rates it very high.
2) The ability score is pretty meaningless actually. They are not used for the ritual spells. For example, here are your typical Wizard ritual spells: Alarm, Comprehend languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, maybe Rary's Telepathic Bond. Which of these need Intelligence? I am pretty sure zero. You're not attacking with a ritual spell typically, and no save is usually needed, so...what are you referring to that you need a second ability score? In fact I think literally only Contact Other Plane requires Intelligence for a Wizard ritual spell.

Ritual caster is a GREAT feat. I am considering it for my Fighter, to get a familiar, comprehend languages, and tiny hut. This would increase my party's scouting, communication, and ability to safely rest - all things we badly need. Intelligence is my dump stat. Who cares, it's not needed at all.

Yep 5E has a few huh type things in it. This is one of them. Thief with healer feat is another perhaps.

Rituals are handy to have but you can get by without them.

Midgard has a dedicated wizard archetype for ritual casting. I want to try it sometime.

CapnZapp · Dec 19, 2018

Chaosmancer said:
Really?

I've seen Warlocks, Fighters, Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians mentioned as incredibly high damage dealing classes. I've personally seen Clerics dishing out 50 or more damage a round (Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and Booming Blade on a Quarterstaff with the cleric d8 added to it).

Sorcerer has never been one I've seen people say topped the damage charts. Not by a long shot.

First off, any spellcaster with a decent area attack spell can spike a load of damage.

But I'm not talking about individual damage spikes (which can easily reach several hundred points of damage if you luck out).

I'm talking about nova damage. The Sorcerer's ability to cast BOTH a regular spell (which must be said to be equal to the Wizard and Sorcerer) AND a twinned cantrip, means - for many campaigns - that a member of the class will always be welcome.

(Yes, eventually you run out of Sorcery points, but that's not relevant for nova purposes. The only point made here is: if there's one particular monster that needs to die RIGHT NOW, future encounters be damned, few other classes can accomplish this faster)

Again, I wasn't contesting any of what the OP said. I just wanted to put more emphasis on the nova damage aspect, as in, "yes, many people think the wizard is better, but since the sorcerer completely overshadows it when it really matters*, it's not all that bad."

*) remember what style of campaign I'm talking about here.

CapnZapp · Dec 19, 2018

Mistwell said:
Which of these need Intelligence? I am pretty sure zero. You're not attacking with a ritual spell typically, and no save is usually needed, so...

Remember that many people aren't really reflecting over this fact.

You're absolutely right, no doubt about it, just keep in mind that for many players it's "if I'm getting Wizard spells I need a great Intelligence score".

For a few gamers it can actually reach the level of being a bug they need to houserule, perhaps by bringing back the 3E rule that you need a spellcasting ability score of 10 + the level of the spell you're trying to cast.

Myself, I see that, somewhat (while it makes sense for learned Wizards to have Int, it makes less sense for Clerics and Sorcerers). I just like how not having this requirement enables MORE archetypes more

CapnZapp · Dec 19, 2018

Gadget said:
but I am more convinced that they require more system mastery than average to be effective

Sure, though not a barrier for my Sorq player

D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

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