How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

Thread is what it says on the tin.

Most takes on how to handle a fastball special that I've seen are too complicated, punish the attempt with two many rolls that can result in total failure of the move (often effectively triple or quadruple disadvantage), or restrict the manuever to the point where it'd be simpler to just say "no, you can't do that in this game".

What I'd like is a take wherein each participant makes exactly 1 check, and both have to fail for it to be a total failure, with the chance of a mixed success if half or more participants fail.

So, for a fastball special,

reasoning said:

I'd probably set a distance at which no roll is required from the thrower, and a maximum distance you could get with a 20 on the die, that scales from the same base as the minimum distance, so there's just the one number to reference.
Probably, that would the thrower's carrying capacity, jump distance, or strength score. Something that is already a stat they can reference, based on strength.

For reference, a real life human threw a real life other human who weighed 130lbs about 17 1/2 feet. Scottish dudes throw 175lb cabers end over end. I'm fine with a 14-16 Strength character with Athletics trained doing the same with some practice. In fact, I'd only require Athletics for aiming the throw, bc 5e isn't extra with the complexity.

So, for a medium creature that is basically human sized, I'd use a number of feet equal to Strength Score as the base for throwing a willing creature. This is basically taking a ten, assuming you are performing a manuever to maximize the throw, like launching a running creature who springs from your cupped hands as you arch up from a squat and throw them, or doing a spin for momentum before launching them like a sack of potatoes. Half the distance if you don't have any such help, or if the creature is unwilling. (resolve the unwilling part as a grapple contest, obviously)

But I want to be able to roll to improve the throw, which is where skills come in. Either the thrower's Athletics or the thrown person's Acrobatics or Athletics can be used to increase the distance, up to a number of feet equal to half the total of the check? So, if you get a ten, you're adding 5ft?

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I'll get to action economy of joint maneuvers later in the post.

But why even do it? What do you get out of it? said:

Obviously, sometimes the main point is just to get to an enemy, get a character to a place they can't reach on their own, or just do a cool stunt. Here is what I propose, for those times where you want to do this to gain an advantage over an enemy. The two characters choose between the following benefits when they decide to do the thing.

• The attacker has advantage on the attack at the end of the manuever, if the throw succeeds in getting them to the spot.
• The target takes 1d6 for every 10 feet the attacker was thrown, halfish what you'd take from falling the same distance.
• The target is Shoved, in addition to the normal effect of the attack.

The thrower is giving up an action to do this, and unlike the help action, it has a chance of failure, so I'm ok with Advantage or extra damage if they succeed.

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Conclusion:

Throw distance equal to the higher of the thrown creature's or the thrower's Strength Score in feet.

Half that number if you don't do anything to help the throw, if the thrown creature is unwilling, or if the creature being thrown is heavier than the weight the thrower can carrying without being encumbered. The thrown creature can help by moving at least 10 feet, ending in the thrower's space, before the throw, or by adopting a ball-like shape to make themselves a more easily handled package.

Add 5ft for every category by which the thrower is larger than the thrown creature, using the thrower's effective size for determining carrying capacity, if it is different from it's actual size. (ie, a Goliath adds 5ft when throwing another medium creature, or 10ft when throwing a gnome or halfling. A fellow Goliath might half the total distance they can be thrown, if their weight is greater than what the thrower can carry without encumberance)

A check to aim the throw and determine any bonus distance is made by the thrower, using Strength (Athletics). If it succeeds, the thrown creature is thrown into the space occupied by the target. DC is equal to the half the distance thrown in feet. A DM might decide that this is instead a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, if the thrower is sufficiently strong, and sufficiently larger than the thrown creature.

The thrown creature then makes an attack roll against the target. They can either gain advantage on that attack, or choose to deal 1d6 extra damage per ten feet they were thrown. They can instead choose to make a Shove attack, using either their Acrobatics or Athletics check.


I like that, but what about the action economy?

I figure the thrown creature uses their Action to take the Readied Action to make their attack, and part of their movement (5ft plus whatever they have to move to get adjacent to the thrower), and then uses a Reaction to make the attack when the thrower uses an action to throw them? Is that too restrictive/costly? I rarely see any Battle Master Fighters take Commander's Strike unless it's houseruled to be less costly in action economy terms, as a comparative example. Perhaps it's a bonus action to set up the throw?

Would you give a bonus to the throw check if the thrown creature is trained in Acrobatics? Handle the attack differently? Perhaps an opposed check, like grappling but with both parties choosing between Acrobatics and Athletics?

Has anyone determined an even simpler way of handling any and all joint manuevers?

In general, I think they should only ever require 1 check per participant, and should strongly feature the possibility of success with a setback or "price to pay" in pbta terms. Maybe treat it exactly as a group check, but with 1/2 exactly being mixed success?

Do any other joint maneuvers come up in your games? If you have a fairly simply system for adjudicating them, what is it?

A few thoughts:

If there are no obstacles between you, your teammate, and the target, the throw can largely be flavor. If you are being "thrown," then just use your movement speed and describe yourself as being thrown.

Now, I know the fastball special well. And in the comics, while I think Colossus provides a lot of the power, Wolverine is timing his jump off Colossus as well to maximize the distance. So if there was an obstacle, such as a chasm to leap over or a higher platform, I think I would just either A) Allow the person being thrown to double their normal long jump distance with a running start (even if they technically didn't get a running start; I would also allow this distance to be included as height too, so long as the toss wasn't just straight up), or B) Allow the person being thrown to be considered as if they are making a long jump with a running start, and add the thrower's strength score.

Also, because we are talking heroes (at least, in my games the players are more powerful and heroic than the average person), I would add 10ft for each degree bigger the thrower is than the one being tossed. So a Goliath throwing a gnome would get an extra 20ft to their toss.

Now, the extra distances assumes that the thrower is using their action to make the throw. But I also agree there should be some additional combat benefit as well. I like the idea of adding 1d6 damage per 10ft thrown. It's not a lot of damage, and its not a move that will be used every turn (especially because the thrower would have to catch up). I doubt doing this would break the game or be too abusable. I'd also say the move is impossible to attempt if there is an enemy within 5ft (though if the thrower is sacrificing themselves while tossing an ally out of danger, I'd probably allow it. Maybe give every enemy an opportunity attack on the thrower, but not the one being thrown). And if the players do start to abuse it, well I'm sure their reputation will begin to proceed them and their enemies, being smart and logical, would begin making strategic decisions to take advantage of the maneuver.

I also don't think there necessarily needs to be proficiency in athletics or acrobatics. It could be assumed that the group is practicing these team maneuvers in their downtime, so I'm ok with not requiring that.

I think I would also place the one being tossed as the one responsible for the attack roll. If they succeed, they hit and get that extra damage. But I also think that succeed or fail, the one being throw is going to land prone next to the target. It is not easy to land from a toss like that. I also might allow the one being thrown to forego they damage to either knock the target prone with them, or shove them back 10ft.

But, full disclosure, I'm much more on the lenient side as a DM, and would rather keep the action going than worry about the maneuver failing outside of the attack hitting. Unless there is some significant hazard that needs to be taken into account that could affect the outcome (like hurricane winds, icy/mudding footing, ect), I would just let the maneuver succeed and success or failure be determined solely on the hit.

For a fantssy non-supers gane i would keep it simple.

The thrower makes an athletics check to apply *his* jump distance to the "ball". As long as the ball is his size/weieght or smaller no problem. I wont worry about "but the "ball" is lighter cuz its also throwing with arms not jumping with legs.

Reductions for standing vs running applies but reach applies so throwing someone 5' means 5'plus 5' reach or 10'

The ball can use ready action to attack during flight, likely needs acrobatics check on landing or prone.

Almost certainly the ball draws AO in transit.

I haven't given it much thought because my players tend to act on their own. I do support crazy maneuvers and try to let them succeed, but to date it has only been solo stuff. Succeed or fail, stunts and 'out-of-the-box' thinking makes the game fun and memorable for them and me and it keeps them coming back to the table.

Of the top of my head, I would ask the thrower for an Athletics check and the throwee for an Acrobatics check. The DC would be based on the distance needed to be thrown. If both succeed, I would allow the throwee's Attack (or whatever action they were attempting) to be at Advantage.

If it ever came up, which it hasn't, I would probably do similar to [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] or give both PCs a check. The check could be athletics or acrobatics for the PC being thrown. For example if the fighter is throwing the halfling rogue, the fighter is providing the oomph while the halfling is providing the finesse.

I wouldn't add a ton of distance either way, just use the highest distance possible jump ignoring special class features or magic and give advantage to the person being thrown to their skill check. All the other action economy restrictions would still apply.

The thrower is using their action to toss the "ball".

This is an opportunity cost and sounds like the Help Action.

So distance wise, how would this help the ball? (Assuming loosely that the thrower is strong enough to lift the character they are throwing.)

Like I think someone said above, adding the thrower's jump distance to the ball would be simple.*





*as long as their are no monk movement, jump spell shenanigans allowed to stack

So followup question.

Are we okay with a say STR 15 character casually tossing party members across all pits and chasms at least 25 feet across? (Assuming most characters have at least a 10 STR)

Are we talking about the idea of throwing another party member? How I handle it is I tell the players it’s not gonna happened. The expression “I (don’t) trust you as far as I could throw you” exists because throwing people is basically impossible.

That said, for more plausible maneuvers that require simultaneous action (let’s say the ol’ you take one end of the rope, I takebthe other end of the rooe, and we both run at the bad guy(s) and trip them), I use the Ready action. The faster character Readies to do their part when the slower player does their part.

SkidAce said:

So followup question.

Are we okay with a say STR 15 character casually tossing party members across all pits and chasms at least 25 feet across? (Assuming most characters have at least a 10 STR)

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No. My suggestion was the thrower applies their jump distance to the "ball" using athletics. So you are not adding a new distance, just using your action and skill to apply that distance to snother.

So, a str 15 fighter could throw the 8 str togue across a 15' pit, if success made on check. Thry vould thrn jump over thrmselves. This is just a different way than the fighter jumps first, holds rope, shimmy across rope option they already had.

For an in-combat maneuver, its gonna get the rogue either advsntsge or disadvantage on an attack depending on the athletics check.

SkidAce said:

So followup question.

Are we okay with a say STR 15 character casually tossing party members across all pits and chasms at least 25 feet across? (Assuming most characters have at least a 10 STR)

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I am not. If my players begin attempting it, I would be suggesting that we switch genres and use one of the many supers games that I own. If I was a player in a group where players were attempting it and the GM allowed it, I would be very quickly looking for another group and, sincerely, wish them well in their enjoyment.