I have no problem with mages running out of spells I have played in many a game where that has happened. I just don't like the idea of clerics , bards, druids not being able to save a PC with a scroll of heal because they have used up all their spells slots.
Is the Heal skill not an adequate fallback?
Also, what about the case where the party don't have an appropriate scroll available?
(Basically, I take the view that there will always be cases where the PCs might not have a suitable resource available to save a fellow PC... and that's okay. But if there are
any cases where they might not have a suitable resource, I don't see it as unreasonable to require them to have a spell slot available to power a slot.)
(Incidentally, one thing I considered was allowing
any caster to burn a spell slot to power
any scroll of the same level - thus allowing even the party Wizard to cast that
scroll of cure light wounds in extremis. But, of course,
only to cast it - they wouldn't get to add the spell to their "known" list!)
I have to disagree on this being a trivial resource if the casters is not making them himself he has to buy them make it hard to buy magic items. That is what I do in all my games because it has never made sense that people are turning out these items if the wizards making them do not adventure they would easily run out of XP and drop levels.
I don't disagree with your logic here, but it's not the standard assumption in the DMG, which spells out that even in a smallish settlement it should be possible to find multiple instances of most low-level scrolls.
I did not multi quote because I lost that post twice so I am just going to skip that and keep my finger crossed this go through.
I decided to risk it.
I am going to disagree with the entire ides that having access to a big variety of spells is the issue. If you only get two spells every level then any others come from other sources like scrolls then that takes time, gold and a spellcraft check to add them to your spellbook. And I have played enough wizards to know that even with a maxed out spellcraft you can fail the roll and can't add that spell until you level and put another rank on spellcraft. Plus you need to keep track on if you have the room in your spellbook.
Fair enough. What about the Cleric and the Druid?
Take knock the spell that is usually used as an example. I in 30 years of playing have never once ever seen this spell abused in a way to stomp all over the rogue. The only time I have seen it used by mages is when the party does not have a rogue to open locks.
Funnily enough, in my current campaign the Rogue has a magic item infused with the
knock spell which he uses to bypass
his own skills. And very useful it was too, when I recently put in a riddle-locked door and forgot to put in a solution to the riddle. (Oops! Not my best moment.)
A wizard who memorizes this spell gives up other better useful spells so why bother when you have a rogue who can pick locks all day long until the cow comes home.
I have heard the argument why would a wizard not get a wand of knock because it is so much better than a rogue ability. If the game was real life and death then that would be true but we are playing a game and as much as I like a lot of realism in the game there are times to have self imposed limits. So a player taking knock and just stepping all over the rogue is being a dick. And the DM is letting him by not saying no and talking to him out of game.
But having a spell like knock allows DMs to have locked doors when there is not a rogue in the party.
Actually, there's a much better solution to the "locked door and no Rogue" problem - for every door in the place
include at least one key!
As for the wider issue with
knock, generally speaking I agree. However, as has frequently been said, just because you can house rule an issue away doesn't mean it isn't bad design. Or, in this case, just because table convention can remove an issue doesn't mean it isn't bad design.
Then there is the argument that fighters just point pointy things at people and mages move mountains. Boo Hoo sorry but magic is supposed to be special and powerful and moving mountains seems rather epic level and epic level fighters can mow down most armies. If players want to move mountains then don't play a fighter. A fighter's job is to protect the squishy team members and go toe to toe with big bad ugly things. If you think fighters are unfun to play then make them fun give them more things to do but stop blaming the wizards and magic on that.
The problem is that too often the Wizard gets to move his mountains and then, when the fight against the "big bad ugly things" comes up (to give the Fighters their chance to shine), the Wizard pulls out some save-or-suck spell and renders
that challenge meaningless as well.
I absolutely disagree that are not times that you can't take abilities away from the players. There is nothing wrong with having anti magic zones, wild magic zones. zones where healing does not work , Eberron has an entire area that healing does not work in and spells act wonky. There should be things rogues can' sneak attack and times wizards need to figure out what do with a familiar.
I don't really want to weigh in on the "bears underwater" argument, but I do agree with the above. Provided it's done
occasionally this is fine. What isn't fine is where the DM is constantly looking for ways to negate the abilities of the PCs (or, even worse, one PC in particular).