Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 1 Failure and Story

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?


Notice it’s “storytelling”, not storymaking. Every RPG involves a story, the question is, who creates the story, the GM or the players?

Inevitably, 40-some installments into this column, “Old School” would come up.

. . . role-playing games do not have plots. They have situations at the campaign, adventure, and encounter level which the players are free to interact with however they wish– as long as they accept the consequences!” - Jeffro Johnson (author of the book Appendix N)​

This will be in three (oversized) parts, because understanding of this topic is fundamental to discourse about what some of us (at least) call RPGs, and there’s too much for one or two columns (I tried). I think of a Quora question that asked what a GM can do when a player’s character does something insane or ludicrously inappropriate during a game. The answers varied widely depending on the goals of the answerer. The Old School answer is, “let the character suffer the consequences of the action”; but for those on the New School side, it was a much more complex problem, as the character’s actions would make it hard if not impossible for the GM to tell the story he had devised for the adventure.

Likely everyone reading this has seen and perhaps discussed the term “Old School” in connection with RPGs. When I started to reconnect with RPG fandom a few years ago, I wasn’t sure what “Old School” meant. There seem to be many definitions, but I now see the fundamental divide as not about rules. Rather, it’s about the attitude of the GM, and of the players, toward losing and failure. That’s at the root of Jeffro’s rant, though he puts it in terms of plot and story, which are closely related.

As I said, this is in three parts. The second will talk about rules, GMing, and pacing, and about non-RPGs reflecting the two schools. The third part will talk about differences in actual gameplay.

I’m not going to be “one true way” the way Jeffro is (“thieves must have d4 hit dice” is one of his rants). I write about RPGs as games, not as story-telling aids or playgrounds, but I am describing, not prescribing even as I obviously prefer the Old School. Let’s proceed.

If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?

In terms of story, in OS the players write their own story, with the benefit of the GM’s assistance. The GM sets up a situation and lets the players get on with it. (This is sometimes called [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT]sandbox[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT] in video games, though video games tend to impose an overall story as a limitation of using computer programming instead of a human GM.) The other extreme is when the GM tells the players a story through the game. (In video games this is called a linear game, where the story always ends up the same way.)

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.

Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.

Not surprisingly, as the hobby has grown, the proportion of wargamers (now a small hobby) has decreased drastically. Many players are not even hobby gamers, that is, they’re not quite “gamers” in the old sense because the only game they play is their RPG(s). Many people want their games to be stories, so the shift from Old School to something else is not surprising.

D&D 5e bears the marks of the newer playing methods, as there’s lots of healing as well as the ridiculous cleric spell revivify for mere fifth level clerics.

There are all kinds of shades of the two extremes, obviously. And all kinds of ways of running RPGs. Next time, I’ll talk about more differences between Old School and newer ways of playing such as Rules and Pacing, and compare with non-RPGs.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Yes, in superhero and some action movies, protagonists shake off tremendous amounts of damage, but not completely, until they drop. There is often some teetering and blood first. <...> I am not against DnD hp. They fit the game fine, but they are absurd, from any reality's point of view, a metagame conceit.

They seem to work fairly well in many circumstances, although they can get kind of ludicrous, such as when dealing with falling. As annoying as they are, in many cases the cure is worse than the disease---the bookkeeping that comes with keeping track of bleeding or various persistent conditions creates pretty marked slowdown, for example---and hit points enable D&D's really massive scale, where ordinary mortals can fight dragons and the like.

However, games like Champions have Body and Stun, and this works well to simulate the superhero genre. Various Wounds/Vitality or Wounds/Fatigue systems have been around for a while and they can work, even in D&D type games.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

log in or register to remove this ad

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
My roommate a few years back once said of Exalted: "It's a great read."

I played a good bit of it at one point, but the game got more and more complicated over time, pointlessly so in my view. I felt like it wanted to top 3.5 for its rules density. I'm starting as a player in a 5E campaign that's got a lot of the Exalted feel to it. During our Session 0, the DM, an old friend of mine I hadn't gamed with in quite some time, said "I was interested in doing Exalted again but quite frankly don't have time for that much work."
 

But, flipping a coin isn't a simulation at all. A simulation actually has to tell you something about what happened. It has to answer basic questions and flipping a coin answers nothing. Just because you get a result does not make something a simulation. Otherwise everything is a simulation and the term is meaningless.

I didn't say it would be detailed simulation :D Rolling dice gives a more finely grained set of possible results. It's allows more detailed results, especially if you roll through multiple steps. Still, if you have a 50% chance of hitting something, where is the difference? I tend to find "simulation" to be meaningless, because the definition is uncertain and there is no commonly accepted definition (that I know of).


IOW, a simulation has to create a model by which an independent viewer could actually understand how you got from A to B to C. Now, if we use a coin flip and you declare monster X is dead, an independent viewer has absolutely no idea how you got that result. What does a "heads" actually mean in the fiction? Well, because a coin flip is about as gamist as it comes, it means anything you want it to mean, so long as Monster X is dead. So, any and all narratives are equally valid and indisputable.

Your definition of "simulation" (and it seems like a good one) is about the level of detail and stitching it all together to make sense (if I'm reading you right). That's fine. For me, that's just moving the slider towards more detail and less abstraction.

Imagine applying that logic to GURPS or RuneQuest. Or Star Fleet Battles. "What do you mean my warp drive exploded? Well, I flipped a heads. *table flips*" :D

But, be that as it may, from a world point of view, D&D has shown very little interest mechanically in simulating anything. Completely borked economic systems, complete disregard to anything approaching a functioning ecosystem, absolutely no attention paid to how the existence of magic would impact social and political structures in an iron age setting. So on and so forth.

D&D does one thing really, really well - makes interesting adventures for players to play through. Anything beyond that is generally just pulled out of the DM's imagination.

Adventure. That is the point of the game. Anything more does take a lot of DM work, I agree. I've done major surgery on things like economics and so on. What I think D&D does "simulate" (even if I'm not using it the same way as you) well is a world that is only superficially like the real world. That's how my world is; it looks the same but it's very different under the hood, so to speak. Science, biology, chemistry, physics etc. do not exist. Everything is based on magic, the five elements (the four standard; the fifth being Spirit) and positive and negative energy. I find it works quite well and eliminates a lot of problems, as well as explaining those odd differences between the real world and the D&D world.

Well, you mention Traveller. Now THERE is a world simulating system. Can't fault that one. But, again, compare Traveler to D&D. AFAIK, D&D has never produced anything like the Traveller world generation system for creating fantasy worlds.

Although, to be fair, THAT'S a supplement I would LOVE to see.

It's been done. The Thieves World boxed set (by Chaosium in 1981), which presented the Robert Aspirin book setting, included stats for several game systems including Traveller. Iirc Marc Miller did the work on it. "Magic" was a skill in it :) Elements of Traveller were used as part of a fantasy rpg setting for a fictionalized Roman Empire / Byzatine Empire as well. The trade system, encounters etc. fit pretty well. It was released for free by the author and done in pdf. I have it saved on my PC. It looked exactly like a Traveller LBB from classic Traveller. I did a hex generation system (similar to Travellers World / System generation) where you rolled for each hex on a map. Population, government, law level, trade routes, all done a la Traveller. I used it to generate areas on my world back in the day. I haven't thought about it in ages (I did it in 1977 iirc). It was all fun. The original D&D game could create a world (roughly of course) by running through the encounter tables and letting it generate the inhabitants based on the % chance for lairs and then rolling the numbers. Primitive, but the game was.
 

pemerton

Legend
If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?
I don't understand the posited connection between "danger" and "loss".

In my Burning Wheel game, the principal PC (ie the one whose player was present for the most number of sessions) had a goal of redeeming his brother from demonic possession. Another PC had the goal of killing said brother out of revenge. At a particular crunch moment, the two characters were racing to the tower where the brother was resting, recovering from injury. The principal PC lost the race, and the other PC arrived there first and cut off the brother's head. No redemption possible after that!

The principal PC didn't get what he wanted. The player of that PC "lost". The danger to that PC was not high, though - the other PC wanted to kill the brother, not the principal PC.

Only for a very narrow range of situations and scenarios does danger correlate to prospects of losing.

But anyway, here's an example of a game that has a high degree of danger, in the sense that the wrong choice when confronted by physical or emotional threats could lead to bad things happening to your PC, and that also has a high degree of story: Burning Wheel.

Here's an example of a game which has a low degree of danger in that sense, and a low degree of story: AD&D played with PCs around 7th-9th level and up. (Those PCs will be very resilient and typically will have a lot of depth of magical resources to draw upon.)

I'll let the OP tell me which one is old school and which one new school.

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.
In most RPGs that I play, there is no such thing as "the adventure". So I'm not sure what it would mean to run "the same adventure for several different groups".

If a RPG is run as a railroad - ie player choices make no significant differences to what happens - then outcomes are predetermined. Are railroads "new school"?

I think this article would be better if it made the point that playing DL c the mid-1980s is more likely to be a railroad than playing Keep on the Borderland c the early 1980s. Although I'm not sure that's a very novel point.
 

pemerton

Legend
I often get a sense - particularly from the story-now crew* - that the real interest lies in the stories of individual characters, with the story of the party as a whole merely tagging along for the ride.

* - though I suppose these could almost be defined as post-NS.
It seems like one of the "story-now crew," such as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION], or [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] would be better equipped to elucidate clarification on such matters then, if you are so inclined.
Assuming that a RPG involves a party which, like the ship of Theseus, has an existence that transcends the relationships of its individual components, is already making a big assumption.

I once ran a Rolemaster campaign that lasted 8 years. When the campaign started there were 4 players and hence 4 PCs. When the campaign finished there were 6 or so players, one or two of whom was playing a NPC sidekick resulting in 8 or so PCs. None of the players was the same as at the start. One of the sidekicks was a starting PC.

At various points on the way through the composition of the group fluctuated as people travelled, returned from studies abroad, etc, and brought in old PCs or created new ones.

There was no enduring "party". There were enduring characters, and enduring relationships between them; and obviously in the real world there was an enduring group most of whose members knew most of the rest and had played together at some time or other.

Here's another way to the same conclusion: in a RPG of the conventional sort, only individuals declare actions, and other than the GM they declare them for PCs (be they main PCs or sidekicks etc). In the absence of railroading, the resolution of these action declarations is what yields story.

The only RPG I know of where actions are declared for the party is classic D&D played with a caller. And in that style of play the party has no longevity beyond the individual dungeon raid (as per Gygax's advice on the closing page of his PHB before the appendices).

TL;DR: a real life group can play a campaign; and characters can figure in stories; but I don't know what this "party" is supposed to be that is part of the fiction but different from the characters.

Also tagging [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] as he was (briefly) part of this discussion.
 

darkbard

Legend
Great to see you back, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]! If I recall correctly, you have been traveling for some extended period? Hope it was a blast!

Assuming that a RPG involves a party which, like the ship of Theseus, has an existence that transcends the relationships of its individual components, is already making a big assumption.

[...]

At various points on the way through the composition of the group fluctuated as people travelled, returned from studies abroad, etc, and brought in old PCs or created new ones.

There was no enduring "party". There were enduring characters, and enduring relationships between them; and obviously in the real world there was an enduring group most of whose members knew most of the rest and had played together at some time or other.

I have very little to add to what you write here, except that one way of framing the collection of enduring relationships between various characters played by real people, many or most of whom played together in the telling of these characters' stories, can be through use of the word party.

I will repost what I quoted earlier from Blades in the Dark:

Regardless of how a crew comes to be formed, they all have one thing in common: they exist to create a legacy that will last beyond the founding members. When you start a crew with your partners, you intend to build something that (hopefully) will live on past the scope of your own criminal careers. This is why we have a separate character sheet for the crew--tracking its development, growth, and influence.

In a sense, the crew is the central figure in the stories we're going to tell about the underworld of Doskvol. Scoundrels will come and go--burned out due to TRAUMA, or killed, or forever lost to their vices, or, if they're very lucky, gone to some comfortable retirement--but the crew carries on. New blood come in, new characters with new outlooks and drives, new stories to be told.

In this sense, story and party are near synonyms, with the difference being the role of players directing the actions of PCs. Well, near synonyms may be pushing it a bit, but I hope you see what I mean.
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION], I've heard a lot from various posters about BitD, including reading actual play reports from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION].

How would you say the crew relates to the players? Is it envisaged as being driven by a constant set of players, or players coming and going?

From your rules quote it almost seems like an element of setting, but I could be way off in suggesting that.
 

darkbard

Legend
[MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION], I've heard a lot from various posters about BitD, including reading actual play reports from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION].

How would you say the crew relates to the players? Is it envisaged as being driven by a constant set of players, or players coming and going?

From your rules quote it almost seems like an element of setting, but I could be way off in suggesting that.

Blades is fascinating in that not only do players create their individual PCs, but also collectively they choose a crew for the entire party's shared enterprises, a kind of party character sheet, if you will. Not only do the players advance their characters after scores (read: level them after adventures), but they also advance the crew's sheet, choosing new plays from the playbook options available to their specific crew.

The nature of accruing heat and trauma (the consequences of failures and qualified successes on player actions declarations) suggests that over time PC attrition is a component of play. (For all the silly talk of "New School" play not coming with serious consequences and risk for characters without their consent, this game, at least, should put that to rest. There are mechanisms to reduce or delay serious consequences, but the implicit setting and rules principles indicate this is a brutal world that will break you in the end, even if that just means retiring a character from play.)

Further, during downtime activities to clear heat (a similar mechanic, in some ways, to healing damage), a player's roll might result in an overindulgence of a vice, which comes with the choice of consequence of said player choosing to set aside that character for a period of time (out on a narcotic bender, wrapped up in a torrid love affair, whatever is suggested by the nature of the vice) and turn to another character for a time.

The rules don't really specify whether the crew is envisioned as a static set of players, but it certainly offers the possibility that this is not so.

From the kinds of games you are interested in, I am surprised you haven't picked up a copy yet! It is exactly the sort of low prep, player-facing, story now game you enjoy, unparalleled in the elegance of its design in my humble opinion.
 

Aldarc

Legend
There is a lot that I like about BitD, but I'm not the biggest fan of the setting itself. So any time I engage with reading through BitD, my thoughts always wonder to reverse hacking it to something more generic or useful for other setting ideas I have on my back burner.
 

pemerton

Legend
From the kinds of games you are interested in, I am surprised you haven't picked up a copy yet! It is exactly the sort of low prep, player-facing, story now game you enjoy, unparalleled in the elegance of its design in my humble opinion.
Two reasons: the first is maybe two in itself - time and money. Will I ever get to play this?

The second is theme - I'm not sure I'm into it.

Like you said upthread I've been travelling for a bit but now that I'm back home want to get some RPGing in when the chance arises. I want to play more Traveller; there are at least a couple in my gang who will want to play more Prince Valiant (that system has far more life in it than I anticipated, and has proved really popular with a couple of my players); want to finish up our vikings Cotex+ Heroic Fantasy game; and one day, if the whole group can be mustered, resolve our outstanding 4e campaign and maybe do a bit more 4e Dark Sun. Plus get in some more BW as either GM or player. And I'd lke to run Dogs in the Vineyard, though I think with a fantasy rather than western overaly. And maybe a bit of DW.

So my agenda is pretty crowded for the next few years!

But I'm always happy to learn from others' actual play reports.
 

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top