D&D General Science in D&D

Celebrim

Legend
Not necessarily.

Adding hidden variables to magic like environmental modifiers and character traits doesn't work in D&D because you don't roll to cast spells like you do skills and attacks. If you had to roll to cast spells, then you would be able to assign modifiers based on such hidden variables.

I do it occasionally already, and had a concept in place for a very robust system well before this article was written. Were it not for the whole thing about gamabiilty I mentioned which is based on experience, I'd do it far more than I do.

The way the system works is that spells have keyed descriptors like 'Fire' or 'Good' or whatever, and locations have descriptors as well that effect the caster level of the spell. So for example, an underwater cave might have Fire -3 and Water +3. A water spell cast in that environment would have +3 caster level, while a fire spell would have -3 caster level. If the caster level of the spell goes below the caster level required to cast the spell, you have to make a caster level check to avoid fizzle. If the caster level goes below 0, then it automatically fizzles. If the caster level of the spell is enhanced, then you can be risking a spell fumble (and I have spell fumble tables) for casting magic more powerful than you are able of controlling.

The problem is that you need to not only decide ahead of time where these modifiers apply but then also remember that they are in play. And what I've learned after trying to implement numinous magic through this and other similar methodology is that the amount of head space this takes up in a DM's brain is more than they can handle, because the cost of hiding information about how a player character's abilities work from the player is very high. And so far I've found that except in limited circumstances where you are trying to achieve some special effect the cost is too high for the gains that you get.

The decision to generalize the system to phases of the moon, times of the year, and other modifiers was immediately put on hold once I realized just how demanding it is to do this for geographical location. In short, I've been down the paths that the author is talking about. The core of the system dates back to ideas from the early 90's and I attempted an implementation of it nearly a decade ago.

Exalted is IMO an objectively terrible system.

The sword example given in the essay displays this well. We imagine, say, Excalibur as just a vague property of magic tacked onto a regular sword that can be switched off by an antimagic effect. We don't imagine a scifi Swiss army gun working the same way, because we are told it operates by the same principles as our nervous systems and the weather.

Again, tried to do that as well by giving magic items a system of quirks. And while that does work for something like Excalibur if you try to do that as a general system that applies to all magic items and not just a few you are trying to make special, the amount of information hidden from the player that you as a DM have to remember and keep track of is just too high for the gains in atmosphere. I dropped the system largely after the players hit 4th level or so and all started to have multiple magic items on their person. It was just too much. I now do it only for a few items that are notable enough that they have a status comparable to an NPC.

I think an animistic cosmology could help with this more, since it takes advantage of our tendency to anthropomorphize inanimate objects. Under an animistic cosmology, any blacksmith creates not just a sword but the spirit of that sword. Giving it "magical" properties is a result of enhancing the spirit.

One problem that I've discovered in this is the sheer amount of rules you have to smith out. I have a lot of how I want the system to work in my head, but my guess is that it's 900 pages of 10 point font single spaced type written pages to get it all down on paper and therefore accessible to both me and where applicable the players. As aggressive as I can be about creating house rules, that's proven to be too daunting of a challenge even for me to create. The writing is difficult, my standards are high, and I know now that as cool as it would be you might not be able to actually run the system once it was finished.

Further, just imagine what this system would be like were it finished. The amount of rules on scholarly magic alone would tend to mean that the vast majority of the gaming system was ultimately being devoted mostly to concerns specific to a single class - wizard - and to a lesser extent to spellcasting classes generally. We're already in a situation where most D&D rule books are half spell-descriptions. In this situation I envision needing 3 books devoted entirely to Wizards each twice the size of the supplement specific to other classes, as well as the 300 page book on crafting objects itself devoting a lot of subject matter to item creation which is mostly or at least most easily accessible to wizards.
 
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generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
I do it occasionally already, and had a concept in place for a very robust system well before this article was written. Were it not for the whole thing about gamabiilty I mentioned which is based on experience, I'd do it far more than I do.

The way the system works is that spells have keyed descriptors like 'Fire' or 'Good' or whatever, and locations have descriptors as well that effect the caster level of the spell. So for example, an underwater cave might have Fire -3 and Water +3. A water spell cast in that environment would have +3 caster level, while a fire spell would have -3 caster level. If the caster level of the spell goes below the caster level required to cast the spell, you have to make a caster level check to avoid fizzle. If the caster level goes below 0, then it automatically fizzles. If the caster level of the spell is enhanced, then you can be risking a spell fumble (and I have spell fumble tables) for casting magic more powerful than you are able of controlling.

The problem is that you need to not only decide ahead of time where these modifiers apply but then also remember that they are in play. And what I've learned after trying to implement numinous magic through this and other similar methodology is that the amount of head space this takes up in a DM's brain is more than they can handle, because the cost of hiding information about a player character's abilities work from the player character is very high. And so far I've found that expect in limited circumstances where you are trying to achieve some special effect the cost is too high for the gains that you get.

Interesting, I might use this, if I can find a place for it to mechanically fit in a new setting (my current settings have no room). Have you considered creating a 'cheat sheet' of sorts for the players to use, under this system?
 

Celebrim

Legend
Have you considered creating a 'cheat sheet' of sorts for the players to use, under this system?

Well, a 'cheat sheet' per se would defeat the purpose. If the player had perfect information about the environment all the time, then the system is just mechanical again.

But it would be the idea in the long run that any player running a wizard would now that a divination spell cast at the winter solstice on a mountain top with a clear view of the stars during a night of the full moon would be of elevated power and so that that might be a good time to cast a key divination ritual, if in fact the caster didn't fumble it and drive themselves insane with the revelation beyond that mortals were meant to know. This general knowledge (which could always be supplemented by the characters skills) would give players agency without giving away the game, because they'd never know the exact numbers I'd assign nor the outcome of the random fortune that might befall them, only the general level of risk and reward.
 

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
Well, a 'cheat sheet' per se would defeat the purpose. If the player had perfect information about the environment all the time, then the system is just mechanical again.

But it would be the idea in the long run that any player running a wizard would now that a divination spell cast at the winter solstice on a mountain top with a clear view of the stars during a night of the full moon would be of elevated power and so that that might be a good time to cast a key divination ritual, if in fact the caster didn't fumble it and drive themselves insane with the revelation beyond that mortals were meant to know. This general knowledge (which could always be supplemented by the characters skills) would give players agency without giving away the game, because they'd never know the exact numbers I'd assign nor the outcome of the random fortune that might befall them, only the general level of risk and reward.

Oh, sorry, I missed that part of the original post, as I was too excited about the system.

That's understandable, but I'm going to try to find a way to use it anyway.
 

So, having been inspire by a thread mentioning the relationship of monsters with nature as a philosophical concept, as well as @Celebrim 's complaint, I've decided to stick something that I've been pondering for a while here, on EN World.

How much science do you like in your D&D? For example:

None :)

1. Do your monsters have *sigh* Lighting Blood, and are your snakes poisonous, rather than venomous?

No. Lightning blood? All my little creatures (PCs included) are made of the five elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Spirit). Energy is Positive or Negative. No cells, molecules, atoms etc.

2. Is magic a kind of science? Is magic more than just the manipulation of particles through the generation of electric potential within the brain that couples with a force known as the Weave to produce effects on 3d-dimensional structures?

Nope. No science, no worries about a "logical" explanation for magic.

3. Are your worlds planets? Do they exist in solar systems with correct mass to radius, logical core composition, rational positioning, and mathematically accurate orbits?

My world is a flat "tabletop" on a column inside a crystal sphere. You can fall off the edge :)

4. How do the planes exist? Are they separate from normal reality? How is this so?

They are separate, some easier to reach, others harder. Standard (for D&D anyway) wheel cosmology.

5. Is your table of elements expanded to include metallic elements like adamantium and mithral? If so, how? If not, have you made metals like beryllium adamantium? Do you not worry about it at all

All physical objects are a combination of one, or more, of the four physical elements. There is variation of course, and exposing things to other elements / energy can change the form of something (iron ore = elemental Earth, exposed to elemental Fire and positive energy = iron).

I'm just sending this into the ether in hope of receiving insightful responses.

Well, if you want answers from outside the inner planes you'd better get the message out to the Astral Plane :D

Honestly, I found real world science to be a pain for a fantasy world. My world has it's own laws and logic. Works just like I want it to.
 

D1Tremere

Adventurer
So, having been inspire by a thread mentioning the relationship of monsters with nature as a philosophical concept, as well as @Celebrim 's complaint, I've decided to stick something that I've been pondering for a while here, on EN World.
How much science do you like in your D&D? For example:
1. Do your monsters have *sigh* Lighting Blood, and are your snakes poisonous, rather than venomous?
2. Is magic a kind of science? Is magic more than just the manipulation of particles through the generation of electric potential within the brain that couples with a force known as the Weave to produce effects on 3d-dimensional structures?

Speaking to this (and the other questions), it depends on what you mean by science. Generally, science is a methodology or process by which we come to understand our existence. It is not really a specific set of rules to the universe but is instead the way in which we discern those rules. In that everything follows some sort of set rules generally speaking, at least to the players’ perspective, there is a scientific process available for understanding it.

3. Are your worlds planets? Do they exist in solar systems with correct mass to radius, logical core composition, rational positioning, and mathematically accurate orbits?


My games do not usually cover other planets (at least not yet), but they will follow some form of seemingly consistent rules once it comes to that. I do not think it is important that the rules they follow mimic “real world” rules, so long as there are some sort of rules observable to the players. After all, they are busy adventurers who are unlikely to delve into long term physics observations or chemical analysis. If I hade a lot of physics and/or astrophysics background people in my game I would likely feel compelled to flesh out those rules more, but they are usually just fine in the general sense.

4. How do the planes exist? Are they separate from normal reality? How is this so?

As the planes do not appear to exist in the “real World”, I think this is the best question to illustrate my take. There is no way to accurately portray the planes because a “real world” accurate model does not exist. As long as there are generally consistent rules that the players can observe, any of the philosophies of science (Observation, Falsifiability, Bayesian, Etc.) should be inherently available. The only way to have your world not be based on science (so to speak) would be to have a world where there are no rules that govern anything, and everything behaves inconsistently. Keep in mind however that just as in the real world, scientific approaches to understanding reality do not necessarily produce a complete or wholly accurate understanding of reality.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
So, having been inspire by a thread mentioning the relationship of monsters with nature as a philosophical concept, as well as @Celebrim 's complaint, I've decided to stick something that I've been pondering for a while here, on EN World.

How much science do you like in your D&D? For example:

1. Do your monsters have *sigh* Lighting Blood, and are your snakes poisonous, rather than venomous?

Monsters have blood. Depending on how exotic the critter the blood may have some odd characteristics, but even that is mostly for color.

2. Is magic a kind of science? Is magic more than just the manipulation of particles through the generation of electric potential within the brain that couples with a force known as the Weave to produce effects on 3d-dimensional structures?

So, to put it simply, is Metaphysics a subset of Physics?

No. Physics is science, subject to reproducibility. Condition A results in Effect B, every time.

Metaphysics is an "art". Fifteen different people can say the same words, repeat the same gestures and fiddle the same materials and maybe one of them gets a result. And if several of them do get results they may or may not be the same. (Even two people casting the same spell may result in different effects, in scale, range, shape or visual appearance.)

The same person repeating the same words, gestures etc a dozen times will probably run out of that spell/spell slot before they're done. So no, it's not a science.

3. Are your worlds planets? Do they exist in solar systems with correct mass to radius, logical core composition, rational positioning, and mathematically accurate orbits?

I've been in maybe two games in 40+ years of D&D where that ever came up. Characters seldom, if ever, travel so far that they can see if the world is round. From their POV, the world looks flat, and it looks like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

So, does the heavier object fall faster? In some games, yes, in others no.

4. How do the planes exist? Are they separate from normal reality? How is this so?

They're separate. In a science based world, we'd call them different quantum states. In a mystically based world they're called "different planes of being." If you're asking for a real world explanation, I don't know if quantum physics qualifies, but it's as close as you'll get.

5. Is your table of elements expanded to include metallic elements like adamantium and mithral? If so, how? If not, have you made metals like beryllium adamantium? Do you not worry about it at all?
In classic terms "Adamant" was the name for meteoric nickle-iron, seen as "embers from the forge of the gods". Mithral might just be a different name for another metal or alloy, such as titanium.

Bottom line, does it really matter?

I'm serious about that last question, by the way. Magic, by its very nature, violates physical laws as we know them. As soon as that enters the scene, any attempt to rationalize a real world explanation goes out the window. It's a fantasy game, emphasis on "fantasy"

I'm just sending this into the ether in hope of receiving insightful responses.[/QUOTE]
 

Shiroiken

Legend
Science is a myth put forth by the heretics cultists called "scientists." They attempt subvert the unwary into their belief system that no rational, gods-fearing person can truly understand.

In all seriousness, my Greyhawk campaign actually works based on the "science" of the middle ages. Alchemy requires magic (or fiendish connections) to function, gravity only exists because everything seeks its own element, everything revolves around the Oerth, leeching bad blood is legitimate medicine, etc. This prevents any arguments about how things "should" be when players try to use modern concepts in game (I had a player with a 6 Int barbarian argue said character could easily determine triangulation without any kind of a check). Most assumptions the players have are still going to be correct, but i have no problem intervening to point out that it doesn't work the way they think (I try to do so before it matters, so I don't pull a "gotcha!" on them).
 

Horwath

Legend
You can put science to most magic, in a way at least.

Every teleport could be folding of space-time where you "join" two distance points in space into one point.

Wizard evoking fireball in his hand could leech thermal energy around itself and you would see air becoming cold, icicles forming on the grass around him or similar as he heats a small bead to 2000°C
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
You can put science to most magic, in a way at least.

Every teleport could be folding of space-time where you "join" two distance points in space into one point.

Wizard evoking fireball in his hand could leech thermal energy around itself and you would see air becoming cold, icicles forming on the grass around him or similar as he heats a small bead to 2000°C

You can make sciencey sounding noise, but since there's no way to actually do any of those things...

There used to be discussions about converting components to energy to power evocation spells. The problem is that this would be the equivalent of having a tac-nuke in your hand. The energy release would so far exceed the spell requirements that the overflow would vaporize you.

Bending space-time to Teleport? Hmmm, sounds a lot like Einstein's theory about gravity, that mass distorts space-time, which how/why it can propagate faster than the speed of light. So that would mean that Teleport creates a mini-black hole?

And how about summoning animals? How do Dragon's fly? (Their aerodynamics and mass to wing-surface makes the idea ludicrous.) Where does the granite in a Wall of Stone come from? How does a person in a Time Stop move without burning up from air resistance? (Spell says that it speeds the caster up to the point that the world seems frozen in time.) And, and, and... The list goes on.

To paraphrase Varsuvius (Wizard from Order of the Stick comic), "I've spent years learning how to tell the laws of physics to sit down, shut up and do what they're told". Possibly the best description of magic I've ever heard. :)
 

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