D&D 5E Sword & Sorcery vs. Heroic Fantasy

Melkor

Explorer

• Nov 22, 2017

• #1

Hi all,

Pages 38 - 39 of the 5E DMG talk about Heroic Fantasy and Sword & Sorcery as two different flavors of fantasy (along with Epic and Mythic).

Page 68 of the DMG notes that Toril (Forgotten Realms) is Heroic-Fantasy setting while Oerth (Greyhawk) is a Sword & Sorcery setting.

During the recent "State of D&D" talk (linked here on ENWorld here), Mearls & Perkins talked about settings being a "genre" more than a "place." That being the case, if the design team were to release a book for Greyhawk that was similar to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, do you think there would be changes (or at least slight modifications) to the core rules to support a more Sword & Sorcery genre?

If so, what do you imagine those changes might be?

Thanks.

 

Last edited: Nov 22, 2017

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N

Nailen

Explorer

• Nov 22, 2017

• #2

Way less magic I guess.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using EN World mobile app

 

Satyrn

First Post

• Nov 22, 2017

• #3

I don't think Greyhawk would need rule changes.

There'd just be less magic among the NPCs, I think.

 

Wiseblood

Adventurer

• Nov 22, 2017

• #4

Nailen said:

Way less magic I guess.

Click to expand...

And more swords.

 

S

Salamandyr

Adventurer

• Nov 22, 2017

• #5

I'm not in agreement with the designers' take on the division between "high fantasy" and "sword & sorcery" (just like I've never understood their claim that Eberron is "pulp"). Ultimately it's not about the prevalence of magic. It's about focus. Sword & Sorcery stories are personal. Even when they take place in the midst of huge, world shattering events, they're really about the heroes whose actions ultimately matter. Elric is as high magic as anything in anyone could want...it's still sword & sorcery.

By contrast high fantasy is about the world building, the setting. Even when it focuses on the characters, it's clear the characters are merely a part of a larger whole. A high fantasy story is about the war between Light and Darkness. A war between Light & Darkness is just there in a sword & sorcery story to give the characters something to do while being awesome.

It's not about world or magic. The Greyhawk Wars were pure High Fantasy. The Drizzt stories are sword & sorcery.

Setting books, just by their very focus are going to lean toward high fantasy, because the Heroes (and you know that H better be capitalized) aren't there. The designers don't know who those heroes are gonna be.

 

N

Nailen

Explorer

• Nov 22, 2017

• #6

Wiseblood said:

And more swords.

Click to expand...

And more sauce!

 

ccs

41st lv DM

• Nov 22, 2017

• #7

Melkor said:

Page 68 of the DMG notes that Toril (Forgotten Realms) is Heroic-Fantasy setting while Oerth (Greyhawk) is a Sword & Sorcery setting.

Click to expand...

Maybe they're aiming to make the 5e version of Greyhawk a S&S setting. But that's not the general vibe it's had in any other edition.
You know all that High Fantasy stuff FR is known for? Well, before FR was made the flagship setting we did all that on the GH map. All your shiny stuff in the FR comes from GH....
The difference between GH & FR? One has several hundred novels, a score of computer games, & a setting book published for every country/region. The other doesn't.

 

Oofta

Legend

• Nov 22, 2017

• #8

I agree that we don't need rules changes, it's more thematic. In general heroic fantasy is saving the world from a dragon god trying to take over the world versus plundering dungeons and getting pulled into local issues.

Greyhawk kind of muddied the waters with the whole Greyhawk Wars storyline. Each is fun in it's own way but it does get a little old sometimes that there's another world-ending threat that can only be stopped by a plucky band of adventurers. Of course it's not always and either-or thing, there's a whole spectrum of campaign styles.

 

S

Salamandyr

Adventurer

• Nov 22, 2017

• #9

one good move to get a more sword & sorcery feel to your game. Stop calling your campaign "Greyhawk" or "Forgotten Realms" or whatever else.

Name it after your characters.

Call it the "Chonicles of Rathgar & Felix" (or whatever name your characters pick) or "Tales of the Dark Company" (or whatever your adventuring team decide to call themselves) Boom...in one step you've refocussed your game on what's really important (the characters) and encouraged your players to act like the stars of their own stories.

It'll also discourage piss taking when the characters know they have top billing.

 

S

Shiroiken

Legend

• Nov 23, 2017

• #10

ccs said:

Maybe they're aiming to make the 5e version of Greyhawk a S&S setting. But that's not the general vibe it's had in any other edition.
You know all that High Fantasy stuff FR is known for? Well, before FR was made the flagship setting we did all that on the GH map. All your shiny stuff in the FR comes from GH....
The difference between GH & FR? One has several hundred novels, a score of computer games, & a setting book published for every country/region. The other doesn't.

Click to expand...

Greyhawk was very much a sword and sorcerer setting until 2E, after Gygax was gone. Of course until Dragonlance, pretty much all D&D was sword and sorcery. Forgotten Realms was never really Sword and Sorcery, at least as a D&D product, and it's popularity cause parts of it to bleed back into the base game assumptions. Elves are the most notable example of this, including height, reverie, and the culture of the drow.