D&D 5E My players are using my favorite classes against me lol

CTurbo · Dec 14, 2017

I'm about to DM a one shot(actually will probably be a two parter) and the 6 players have schemed up party fully composed of my 3 favorite 5e classes.

Paladin of the Ancients
Paladin of Devotion
Tempest Cleric
Light Cleric
Lore Bard
Valor Bard

A bunch of smart***es is what they are lol

How would you DM this party? Not sure what races they've selected, but knowing this group, they will all be heavily optimized. The original idea was to start them at level 5.

Krachek · Dec 14, 2017

They wont by good at scouting.
They should be high morale value. Use that against them. Make your vilain take hostage, living shield, and other nasty tricks that will rebuke them a while.

Gardens & Goblins · Dec 14, 2017

Lots of Int checks!

Quickleaf · Dec 14, 2017

CTurbo said:
I'm about to DM a one shot(actually will probably be a two parter) and the 6 players have schemed up party fully composed of my 3 favorite 5e classes.

Paladin of the Ancients
Paladin of Devotion
Tempest Cleric
Light Cleric
Lore Bard
Valor Bard

A bunch of smart***es is what they are lol

How would you DM this party? Not sure what races they've selected, but knowing this group, they will all be heavily optimized. The original idea was to start them at level 5.

Mechanically...

Bear in mind Jeremy Crawford's clarification about combining game effects (e.g. Aura of Protection, Song of Rest, etc) in the DMG Errata here: http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/DMG-Errata.pdf TL;DR: apply the best one not both.

[section]Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.[/section]

Because they'll have so many healing options, don't hold back on monster tactics (i.e. go ahead and focus fire, hit downed PCs, and use dirty tactics). When you want to really threaten them, engineer situations that split the party (often, bards seem to do this on their own!). Also, the party is likely to cluster together to benefit from bard & paladin features, so monsters with area effect attacks should be particularly effective against that party. When running fey, fiends, or undead (which the paladins & clerics clearly want to face) keep in mind the party's ability to turn those things. And consider introducing imperiled NPCs who need succor/healing in the midst of combat, since the party excels at healing.

Story-wise...

I could see them all belonging to some kind of temple of a bardic/nature deity, perhaps one devoted to "the Song of Dawn" or something like that. I'm envisioning a church that emerged from a nature-based faith, something like the old Druidic orders of our world which merged priesthood, belief in spirits, ruling, protection of secret lore, and tracking astronomical/weather phenomenon. Maybe the Druids have mysteriously vanished from the world, and the PCs are trying to restore them or find out what happened? Or there is only one Druid at a time, who serves as the head of the temple OR fell from grace and is now the PCs' nemesis? Or the Druids are kept in stasis sleep in the innermost sanctum of the temple, and the PCs quest for a way to awaken them before disaster strikes?

This is also the kind of party that is begging for you to introduce moral dilemmas into the game...

For example, bards are often more individualism-minded whereas clerics/paladins are more community-minded, so you can play on that when designing story beats.
Another example: the devotion paladin is all about justice/virtue/order in support of "the greater good", following a code of honesty, courage, compassion, honor, and duty...whereas the ancients paladin is all about protecting/championing beauty, following a code of mercy/love/delight. So star-cross'd lovers breaking social mores at the expense of their parents would evoke sympathy from one paladin, but not the other. Similarly a question of whether punishment suits the crime could have the paladins with strong difference of opinion.
And another example: the tempest cleric is probably all about courage/violence/swift justice/inspiring fear (think Batman-of-faith with lightning bolts)...whereas the light cleric is probably all about renewal/vigilance/beauty/truth. So a question of whether or not to make a preemptive strike on NPCs who are likely harboring villains but may not all be evil themselves, but the preemptive strike would make all the difference, yet there's an option to perform reconnaissance instead? That could drive a strong difference of opinion in the clerics. I imagine they could have different perspectives on representing "the truth" as well, with the tempest cleric willing to bend the definition to intimidate foes who he's quick to smite, whereas the light cleric might be more inclined to give the foe a second chance or clarify a misconception.

Nevvur · Dec 14, 2017

"How would you DM this party?" is a rather vague question. Can you be a little more specific about your concerns?

I suspect at least one of them is making combats feel threatening with the copious healing they can bring to a fight. One solution would be to make "Chill Touch" or other effect that suppresses healing a staple ability of the antagonists.

Quickleaf · Dec 14, 2017

Nevvur said:
"How would you DM this party?" is a rather vague question. Can you be a little more specific about your concerns?

I suspect at least one of them is making combats feel threatening with the copious healing they can bring to a fight. One solution would be to make "Chill Touch" or other effect that suppresses healing a staple ability of the antagonists.

That's wicked.

Maybe an evil druid (or druids) lured away from their order's principles by a mighty fiend, then turned undead (a druid-lich?), and calling upon a collection of lesser fiends, undead, and shadow fey.

CTurbo · Dec 14, 2017

I have some new info here. The beginning stat array will be a choice between 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8 or 15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10 before racial bonuses. I let the group agree on a "reasonable" array and this is what they came up with. I don't have any problems with them. We almost always roll for stats. I'm more concerned about them being relatively equal moreso than them being a bit overpowered. If they're ALL overpowered, I just scale up the encounters.

Both Pallys and the Tempest Cleric will be heavy armor Str builds, and the other three with be Dex based so I don't think stealth will be too big of an issue for them. I do like the moral dilemma opportunities and I will definitely be using that.

[MENTION=6783882]Nevvur[/MENTION], my concerns are I feel like they won't have any glaring weaknesses. They're all going to have really high ACs(except for the Lore Bard), and be great at pretty much all saving throws. They can buff, control, and have much greater healing capacity than most parties.

Bardbarian · Dec 14, 2017

This is an opportunity to embrace and validate your player's choices. As a DM we often balance our encounters for what an average party can handle, instead as you are familiar with the abilities of these classes I would tailor your challenges to their strengths. Create encounters that would otherwise be beyond a generic party's ability but because of the excellent use of class abilities can be overcome by your group. Where you might be afraid of too many fireballs hitting your group, reward them by throwing an extra blast because you know the Ancients aura will absorb some of the damage. Create skill checks that need the use of aid and bardic inspiration to succeed. Charm players and have the Devotion paladin free them with the aura. You are not trying to go around their abilities, rather increase the scope so they are the answer. Give each player a chance to shine and forget the recommended CR of encounters, instead go for what feels right narratively. Throw a dozen shadows at them because you know the light cleric will vaporize them. This is an opportunity to go bigger in scale.

Phineas Q. Conundrum · Dec 15, 2017

Not seeing a lot of high-Int type stuff. Hit them with mad Intelligence checks. Intelligence-requiring pseudo-puzzles and stuff that the party will actually not succeed at every once and a while. Also, to nullify the Paladin's Divine Smite, hordes of weak enemies that attack and then disengage to bait those Paladins into charging in (like players usually do when possessed with the confidence/indestructibility that the class provides). I guess I disagree with some of the points made above about making the challenges line up with the party's abilities. I guess I would just call into question their decision not to diversify a little bit more.

CTurbo · Dec 15, 2017

I'm sure the entire party will end up with an 8-12 in Int but with Guidance, Inspiration Dice, and Paladin Auras, I don't see it being an issue for them.

I'm the kind of DM that's going to play to their strengths at times, but I'm also going to play to their weaknesses too. Playing to the party's strengths usually makes for a happy party. That's when they really get excited about their characters after they get to pull off what they've built for successfully. Of course everybody knows that attacking their weaknesses is part of the game too. These players know me well and know I am going to exploit a weakness at some point.

It's already challenging enough to DM a party with 2 Paladins compared to normal. The same thing can be said to a slightly lesser extent about a party with two Clerics. I've never DMed a party with two Bards.

Apparently the Light Cleric might end up being a Life Cleric instead. This would put a huge damper on the party's ranged attack DPR, but it shoots their already great tankiness through the roof. It also tips the scale toward Str and less Dex. Heat Metal may be this party's kryptonite.