Skills used by players on other players.

GameOgre · Dec 8, 2018

So here we go again.

In my game tonight a player with a 20 Cha and Expertise in Persuasion, who plays the face man of the party was role playing his character and trying to talk another pc into doing what he wanted(helping some villagers). The other pc was a really slow witted barbarian half orc but he wasn't willing to role play his character being motivated and persuaded by the face man. I told the face man to make a persuasion roll and the barb to make a insight check.

The Barb failed and so I told him the Face man sounded very convincing and that his instinct was to go along with it, for the face mans sake if nothing else. I explained this wasn't something like charm or mind control but to try to role play the change of heart after listening to the face mans words.

The Player was having none of it. He refused to go along and even made aggressive actions against in character against the other character. I halted the game and tried to handle the situation but he wasn't having it.(he is a friend who normally is a great player) He just felt like HE should decide what his character thought.

I said your right. You can, its called role playing. YOU are not standing there talking to the face man, your character IS. YOU'R CHARACTER doesn't have you mental abilities.Nor does the face mans player have his characters. It's called role playing. Do it.

So yeah things got a little heated and he was saying he thought the other pc shouldn't be allowed to use his skill on other pc's and in frustration I said fine, Then his strength and con and dex give no benefit either, his skill with a weapon doesn't work on pc's now any skills like stealth and perception. After all why should they?

After like 3 min we all cooled down and 5 min later were going on again BUT with the matter pretty much unresolved, just ignored. I decided to just let it go and let everyone cool off.

This isn't the first time this has been brought up in the game and I just do not understand where it is coming from.

To me it would be just like saying"Oh your barbarian wants to lift that? ok well lift up the front of my car and if you can do it then fine"

I do not understand why some players refuse to see the way of it.

I mean that player would NEVER let anyone "Get one over" on his low int/wis character EVER. It's just horrible role playing yeah but it would also pretty much make sure no one ever played a face man again.

Guest 6801328 · Dec 8, 2018

I'm 100% with your friend. Social skills do not work on other players.

He's not a horrible roleplayer; he just doesn't roleplay in the way you like. There are two possible solutions here:
1) Deal with it
2) Don't play with him

Trying to solve it by forcing him to play a way he doesn't agree with, using what is essentially PvP mechanics, just ain't gonna work.

Lord Mhoram · Dec 8, 2018

In my opinion the play has complete control of his character's choices unless affected by mind control/charm kind of spells.

To me using a skill (even a social skill) to influence another character is tantamount to using combat skills (like swinging a sword) at that character. Personally If I had a GM that made my character "go along" because another character used a social skill on me- thus taking away player (not character) agency and the GM allowed or encouraged that - I'd walk. If you allow PC vs PC combat and encourage that as easily as you did the social skill, then that is how your game works. But then I ban PC vs PC combat, so I am comfortable banning PC vs PC skill influence on agency.

To me it has nothing to do with Roleplaying good or bad, but about the social contract and player agency. I was in a game (Rolemaster) that the GM said about 6 months into the campaign that he was going to make all PC combat rolls behind his screen in secret - I handed him my characters sheet, and walked. This was after the previous session when my character made an open table open ended (exploding) roll that defeated the big bad in one shot (hey - that's rolemaster).

GameOgre · Dec 8, 2018

Social skills do not work on other players.

Why? I mean you specifically mentioned social skills and not other skills. What separates Social skills from other skills?

Ratskinner · Dec 8, 2018

You're right. If the charisma/persuasion stuff doesn't work vs. another player, then the strength and dex stuff doesn't either.

I mean, the barbie player chose to play that guy with his week mental stats...now he wants to go back on it. Its not cheating per se, but it is unsporting. IMO. Otherwise, IME that would just hand over the ability for physically strong characters to intimidate the mentally strong ones with no recourse.

Those stats and mechanics are in the game to ensure that, in fact, you can play a ridiculously charismatic or intelligent person. Just like the others are in there to ensure that you can play a ridiculously strong or tough person. Whatever justification one might have for shorting out the one works for shorting out the other.

GameOgre · Dec 8, 2018

Lord Mhoram said:
In my opinion the play has complete control of his character's choices unless affected by mind control/charm kind of spells.

To me using a skill (even a social skill) to influence another character is tantamount to using combat skills (like swinging a sword) at that character. Personally If I had a GM that made my character "go along" because another character used a social skill on me- thus taking away player (not character) agency and the GM allowed or encouraged that - I'd walk. If you allow PC vs PC combat and encourage that as easily as you did the social skill, then that is how your game works. But then I ban PC vs PC combat, so I am comfortable banning PC vs PC skill influence on agency.

To me it has nothing to do with Roleplaying good or bad, but about the social contract and player agency. I was in a game (Rolemaster) that the GM said about 6 months into the campaign that he was going to make all PC combat rolls behind his screen in secret - I handed him my characters sheet, and walked. This was after the previous session when my character made an open table open ended (exploding) roll that defeated the big bad in one shot (hey - that's rolemaster).

But social skills are not spells or attacks. They do not have the force of such things and don't take away the players agency but help direct that agency. It's called role playing. Your character might be talked into things he wouldn't normally do but yeah that's what happens when dealing with incredibly characteristic people! Why wouldn't you just role play that.

It's not like I was saying"you have to act out of alignment or even out of character really. It's not some charm spell, so you might indeed go along with it because that character is so charismatic but you the player get to decide how to do so and in what way its done. Even at what point it simply wouldn't work. But to insist that it holds no sway at all over your character isnt roll playing at all.
IMHO..

A example of good role playing and the use of social skills.
Fred is role playing Sir Fredrick and a Knight of the Vale. He is assigned to guard the Duke's grand hall and told to arrest anyone who comes in after midnight as none have permission to enter the hall that late.

Two hours into the watch Sir Fredrick is startled to see his good friend and fellow party member Toobob (played by Bob another player who plays a thief with high charisma and expertise in persuasion) come into the hall!.

Sir Fredrick"HALT! Toobob, what the hell?"

Bob playing Toobob-I want to roll a persuasion check to try and get him to let me pass. Toobob rolls a 19 and has a +11! Toobob also says"Oh dude is this the hall? I didn't realize,can I just slip on tot he other side? I got a date with this Noble who is hot for this Summer Wine!*Holds up a bottle of Summer Wine*
Sir Fredrick rolls a 7 insight check and has no bonus. Toobob wins!

The DM" Sir Fredrick you realize that your friend isn't supposed to be here but his innocent eyes and mirthful grin get the better of you, this rapscallion is always getting into some mess"

Sir Fredrick"Hell no you can't! Leave right away man and you will have to figure out some other way, get out of the Dukes hall, I'm supposed to arrest you already! Get out of here before you get us both in trouble!

Bob"Toobob looks alarmed at the mention of arrest and beats feet out of the Hall saying"oh geez man Thanks,sorry didn't know"

Only much later that night does Sir Fredrick here of the commotion and uproar over some midnight theft. Once he is off duty he hurries to the Valiant Duck, the local inn to confront his friend.

Lord Mhoram · Dec 8, 2018

GameOgre said:
But social skills are not spells or attacks. They do not have the force of such things and don't take away the players agency but help direct that agency. It's called role playing. Your character might be talked into things he wouldn't normally do but yeah that's what happens when dealing with incredibly characteristic people! Why wouldn't you just role play that.

It's not like I was saying"you have to act out of alignment or even out of character really. It's not some charm spell, so you might indeed go along with it because that character is so charismatic but you the player get to decide how to do so and in what way its done. Even at what point it simply wouldn't work. But to insist that it holds no sway at all over your character isnt roll playing at all. IMHO..

But social contract trumps role-playing, in my opinion. Making this player do something he doesn't want to do because of skill and "roleplaying" is no better than the CN jerk who screws everything up and says "I'm just roleplaying my character". Who knows - maybe the Barbarian had a situation like what happened in game as part of the player's mental construction of that character and backstory, and this sequence brings that up and he is "No, not gonna do that, it's not good". So he won't do what the charismatic guy wants. Then he is completely justified, in character and being a perfect roleplayer, to not go along.
My characters often surprise me with attitudes and decisions I don't expect when I play them - that is the exact reason I play.

As for the first part - anything imposed from outside that forces the player to act differently than he sees how his character would act/react is taking away player agency.

Lord Mhoram · Dec 8, 2018

GameOgre said:
But to insist that it holds no sway at all over your character isnt roll playing at all. IMHO..

I don't know if that is a typo, but it is perfect roll playing to make the character/player do what the charismatic guy wants, but bad roleplaying.

Ratskinner · Dec 8, 2018

Elfcrusher said:
I'm 100% with your friend. Social skills do not work on other players.

He's not a horrible roleplayer; he just doesn't roleplay in the way you like. There are two possible solutions here:
1) Deal with it
2) Don't play with him

Trying to solve it by forcing him to play a way he doesn't agree with, using what is essentially PvP mechanics, just ain't gonna work.

He chose a role with weak social/mental capabilities...and he doesn't want to pay the price for it. To me, that sounds like someone who doesn't want to play the role with integrity. Do you suspect he would feel the same way if he attacked another PC...i.e. that it just wouldn't work? That doesn't match my experience with such players.

Furthermore, are there no charismatic NPCs in this world? Are none of them better at lying than you (or the DM) are? Do you just skip social skills altogether? How would you respond if the Player chose to act on his (not his character's) suspicions that an NPC is lying?

In the olden days, Charisma was about followers. Well, we don't have that anymore. Nowadays the mental stats and skills are about interaction mechanics and (possibly) spellcasting. If you start short-circuiting those mechanics, then you can expect everyone who isn't a caster to dump all those stats, because why not?

5ekyu · Dec 8, 2018

GameOgre said:
So here we go again.

In my game tonight a player with a 20 Cha and Expertise in Persuasion, who plays the face man of the party was role playing his character and trying to talk another pc into doing what he wanted(helping some villagers). The other pc was a really slow witted barbarian half orc but he wasn't willing to role play his character being motivated and persuaded by the face man. I told the face man to make a persuasion roll and the barb to make a insight check.

The Barb failed and so I told him the Face man sounded very convincing and that his instinct was to go along with it, for the face mans sake if nothing else. I explained this wasn't something like charm or mind control but to try to role play the change of heart after listening to the face mans words.

The Player was having none of it. He refused to go along and even made aggressive actions against in character against the other character. I halted the game and tried to handle the situation but he wasn't having it.(he is a friend who normally is a great player) He just felt like HE should decide what his character thought.

I said your right. You can, its called role playing. YOU are not standing there talking to the face man, your character IS. YOU'R CHARACTER doesn't have you mental abilities.Nor does the face mans player have his characters. It's called role playing. Do it.

So yeah things got a little heated and he was saying he thought the other pc shouldn't be allowed to use his skill on other pc's and in frustration I said fine, Then his strength and con and dex give no benefit either, his skill with a weapon doesn't work on pc's now any skills like stealth and perception. After all why should they?

After like 3 min we all cooled down and 5 min later were going on again BUT with the matter pretty much unresolved, just ignored. I decided to just let it go and let everyone cool off.

This isn't the first time this has been brought up in the game and I just do not understand where it is coming from.

To me it would be just like saying"Oh your barbarian wants to lift that? ok well lift up the front of my car and if you can do it then fine"

I do not understand why some players refuse to see the way of it.

I mean that player would NEVER let anyone "Get one over" on his low int/wis character EVER. It's just horrible role playing yeah but it would also pretty much make sure no one ever played a face man again.

In my games I make it clear that I do **not** as GM force my views about good roleplaying on my players. I handle persuasion skills etc with the presentations, reactions etc of my NPCs but for PC to PC it's up to them to work it out.

However, I also make it clear it's on the players and their characters sho is in and out of the group, so it's also on thrm to play someone the others want around. So, if the "face" convinces everyone but the barbarian, the barbarian may get left behind and left out if the rest roleplay the persuasive pitch.

But I would not call for a check in those cases.

Now, of course, start throwing in compulsions etc things get fifferent.