D&D 5E BECMI for 5e?

Tony Vargas · Jul 1, 2019

5atbu said:
I utterly hate the implicit racism of race as class, always have, always will

It's total stereotyping, but, then, so are class & race themselves, as a mechanics, innately. Whether combined or independent.

lowkey13 · Jul 1, 2019

*Deleted by user*

LordEntrails · Jul 1, 2019

Well when I first saw the thread title my immediate reaction was "No, that would be stupid, didn't work the first time, would be worse now."

But, talking just about box sets. I do believe their will be more box sets. And I think those are good things. But, using them as a means to expand upon the rules is a *bad* thing. I do note that they have effectively done that with sidekicks, and I'm not sure how that is going to work into the mainstream.

Using SKs as an example, I'm not a person who will probably ever buy Essentials for myself, so how do I incorporate or get the SK rules to use? Other new rules will just make that problem even worse. They have a strong model now with the large AP books that add new and appropriate rules people know where to go to get the new rules. And their is very little rules (or content) overlap.

Hence if I buy a book, I know its' not going to overlap with other sources. The boxes don't do that. They duplicate existing rules, and provide a nice box with all the trinkets that are fun to play with. I hope they continue along those lines.

I like the idea of an Explorer's box. It could include the rules for gnomes, rangers and druids. Include a nice hex crawl map and include the sections of the DMG for such exploration. And of course include a bunch of beasts from the MM and other sources. Maybe it might even include a remake of Expedition to Barrier Peaks...

A Seafarer's box could include a map of the MoonSea, and punch out cardboard 3D ship. Include any rules expansions from Saltmarsh (haven't looked at it yet, but people talk about ship rules). Don't know what races and classes you would include, would have to look at what's in the other boxes. Maybe just rules for levels 6-10 or so.

Jer · Jul 1, 2019

LordEntrails said:
But, using them as a means to expand upon the rules is a *bad* thing. I do note that they have effectively done that with sidekicks, and I'm not sure how that is going to work into the mainstream.

Using SKs as an example, I'm not a person who will probably ever buy Essentials for myself, so how do I incorporate or get the SK rules to use? Other new rules will just make that problem even worse. They have a strong model now with the large AP books that add new and appropriate rules people know where to go to get the new rules. And their is very little rules (or content) overlap.

I actually think the boxed sets having new rules is something that on a case-by-case basis is fine - so long as the reason for it makes sense for the target audience. I also think duplicating those rules in another book - if it's appropriate - is also fine. The sidekick rules, for example, fill a need that is really common among folks who are trying to learn the game, which is that it's often easy to get one other person to buy in and try something, but getting a whole group together is harder. The sidekick rules are perfect for the audience that the set is being aimed at for that reason. Later if they get incorporated into some future sourcebook of fiddly rule bits that would be fine as well - much like how monsters from adventures will end up in future monster compilations. There's a value to having rules in a compiled book even if it comes at the expense of having them show up multiple times.

LordEntrails said:
I like the idea of an Explorer's box. It could include the rules for gnomes, rangers and druids. Include a nice hex crawl map and include the sections of the DMG for such exploration. And of course include a bunch of beasts from the MM and other sources. Maybe it might even include a remake of Expedition to Barrier Peaks...

A Seafarer's box could include a map of the MoonSea, and punch out cardboard 3D ship. Include any rules expansions from Saltmarsh (haven't looked at it yet, but people talk about ship rules). Don't know what races and classes you would include, would have to look at what's in the other boxes. Maybe just rules for levels 6-10 or so.

I like the idea of having the Explorer's box races and classes be the "woodland" ones - I actually hadn't given that much thought to what should be in there, but that's a good thought. The Seafarer's box is an interesting idea too.

Another one that came to me right after I posted would be a "Planeswalker Kit". It could take the characters from levels 11-15 and bring them out into the planes. Or maybe an "Underdark Kit" that could explore the deeps and get into lore (via adventures) about the drow and the duergar and other deep dwellers. And I might even include pre-gen characters so that even if you haven't been playing a campaign through the box sets you could still pick it up and run it as its own game. It may be the only way some folks would ever actually get to play in a high level game, given how campaigns generally peter out before people get to the higher levels...

LordEntrails · Jul 1, 2019

One of the things I think they need to keep separate is making sure the box sets fill a different niche than the books do. Otherwise they threaten to fracture their market/customer-base. ("We play using the box sets." vs. "Oh, we use the real books.")

To me, the books are the detailed sources; dense, compressed content, be that the PHB, MM, or an AP. Box sets are more of a 'getting start with' type of feel, here are some rules, here are so props, etc. So Getting started with D&D. Getting started with wilderness adventures. Getting started with X. I think they also need to stand alone to some degree, so not sure each box having higher level rules work/fit. That's what the PHB is for.

I know the Essentials doesn't fit that model well, but given it's only the second in the line it doesn't have to fit as well as they refine the concept.

Given that idea, getting started with;
- wilderness
- planar travel
- sea adventures
- under dark
- political intrigue
- X culture (i.e. various settings!)

I guess I'mnot so opposed to new rules. Just depends upon where they go etc. (as long as it doesn't fracture the base)

TwoSix · Jul 1, 2019

5atbu said:
I utterly hate the implicit racism of race as class, always have, always will.

I never hear of people proposing
White Caucasian as class
Black Negroid as class
Oriental as class

Yea, but then you get the obvious demands for multiclassing, which I think is still illegal in some states.

Wrathamon · Jul 2, 2019

race as class fits certain styles of fantasy where all the dwarves sorta feel the same with just minor differences. Are the hobbits that different in lotr for example? not really. They have some minor differences that could just be choices in the hobbit class (paths). One of the advantages in this fantasy setting is humans and their diversity.

I think that is why AD&D moved away from it to make it more complex and add more depth to the worlds. Less stereotyped based on the fiction of the time.

S'mon · Jul 2, 2019

Getting back to the OP, I think a Level 6-10 Expert Set box would be nice and help get new players fully invested in the game, and give a limited option alternative for those who find the full game too complex, but after that I think it's time to go to the hardbacks for the full 1-20 game, otherwise you're cannibalising potential sales. With BECMI, by the time of the Masters set it was getting more complex than AD&D. I think 4e D&D would have benefitted a lot from a level 1-10 Essentials Box.

I think the same applies to Pathfinder & Starfinder - it's too big a jump from the Beginner Boxes to the full game, but an Expert Box for levels 5-10 would make transitioning much easier.

dave2008 · Jul 2, 2019

lowkey13 said:
I wouldn't call it love. It's just the first thing that came to mind.

The problem with what you have for BECMI is that it's just 5e, broken up.

Here's the thing, I mean, 5e is already pretty basic. It's nice to have some starter kits, but there's no reason to split the rules like that.

...however, if you had different rules (like the difference between AD&D and B/X) that would totally be worth getting!

I don't think WoTC would ever do that today (why split the player base? why mess with success?) but a new "B/X" would be pretty awesome!

Got it. I was also interested in the idea of gate keeping the rules by only releasing some at a time. How would that affect play? I'm not sure it would, but it might.

dave2008 · Jul 2, 2019

Sacrosanct said:
Nah. That wouldn’t be like B/X, but more of just each box being an expansion of additional classes. B/X sets were categorized by level, not by player options. What you have, it would essentially be regular 5e by the third or fourth box. There wouldn’t be much difference in core rules, like what basic was to AD&D

That is a good point, I was also attempting to imply that it was also level restricted (that is why the adventure levels are provided), but I did not make that clear.