I find it particularly useful, because it's the largest split between player groups that has lots of "I WILL NOT CROSS THIS LINE!!!" players... on both sides.
<snip>
As for Traditional... <snip> 20 years is plenty long to be "tradition" - as is "the vast majority of players hang onto that style" - and it's a style with a large, wide, space for variation.
<snip>
And there are a lot of games that are still Roleplaying but neither Traditional nor really Storygames
BW isn't deeply into the Storygame space; it's definitely outside the trad space as well, but it's very much directly between the two in play.
The fact that BW doesn't fit within the classification is part of what makes me doubt its utility. Likewise MHRP. Likewise 4e D&D? I've certainly seen 4e attacked for giving players an excessive amount of non-magical fiat ability.
Who dictates how, where, and when the NPC is found.
<snip>
| Trad | BW Circles |
| You go find them | increased difficulty if you want them to find you or to be here already |
| You make another test or some dialogue to convince them | increase the difficulty, and they're already convinced |
| you have to plan ahead if you want them to meet you | You narrate the flashback when making the roll when you want them to show up |
| if you fail, you don't find them; if you botch, bad stuff happens | if you fail, they either aren't there, or are annoyed with you. |
That help make it more visible?
In Traveller's Streetwise rules, I think there is a clear implication that you don't have to make another test to convince them. There may be additional dialogue, but that is colour, not action resolution, and might equally be present in BW, depending on how a table handles that sort of thing.
I agree that unlike BW Circles there is not the option to increase the difficulty to increaes the proximity. I'm not sure, though, that that is a very firm marker of a "trad"/"non-trad" divide.
In Traveller, no bad stuff happens if you fail; you just don't find them. That's not a contrast with Circles, though, that's the fact that Traveller doesn't use fail forward and BW does. You could introduce fail forward narration into Traveller just as, for instance, Tweet advocates introducing into Over the Edge in the foreword to the 20th anniversary edition, and just as the two DMGs for 4e advocate introducing it into D&D.
How many Traveller GMs, having seen the Streetwise rules, adapted them similarly to Admin (to find a bureaucrat when needed/desired) or to Broker (to find a merchant) or to Carousing (to find NPCs in bars and clubs)? I'd be surprised if it was none.
I'm not saying that there has been no change/development in RPG design in 40 years. But I am denying the claim that, up until some time within the past 10 to 15 years, it was taken for granted that players would have no impact on the fictional content except through resolving action declarations that model the causal powers of their PCs within the shared fiction. This may have been taken for granted
at some tables. But it wasn't taken for granted
in general. And the Traveller Streetwise rules are an instance of this
in print - a player, by making a successful Streetwise roll, can bring it about that a helpful NPC is available to help with the supply of illicit goods/services.
The streetwise skill is a part of the character, an in-game resource, and when it is applied it is governed by the limits of the setting, per the GM's prerogative (and random chance to some degree). The player is merely affecting the world through the character, not assuming authorial control over the GM's purview.
What has rule zero got to do with this? The rules are fairly explicit that the GM sets the target number. If the PCs have, at best, a streetwise of +3, then all he has to do is set the target to 16 to make it impossible to find the object of the search.
The Streetwise skill is part of the character. But the
player can use it to make it true, in the fiction, that the PC has found a helpful contact to provide licences, guns etc.
The relevance of rule zero is that the skill description gives sample DCs: 5+ for licences, 9+ for firearms. A referee who sets a DC of 16+ is not folowing those guidelines, and is de facto blocking the player's action declaration. The Streetwise skill description even has the following text, which I elided upthread: "local subcultures [are] asumed to be the same everywhere in human society". Which strongly implies that the example DCs are expected to be generalised.
Other skill descriptions even refer to world law levels (eg Forgery) but Streetwise does not, implying that even on high law level worlds there is still subcultures in which Streetwise will work. (Something of a Bladerunner feel, which also fits with the skill tables for the "Other" service.)
There is nothing in the rulebook that suggests that the player's ability to use the skill to get these goods/services is somehow "governed by the limits of the setting". The notion of the "GM's prerogative" or "GM's purview" does not appear. Here is the relevant text on the referee's role (Book 1, p 3):
[T]he referee . . . actually creates a universe, and then catalogs the creatures and societies which poplate it. . . .
[T]he referee creates a star map and generates the specifics of the worlds noted on it . . . Initially, however, ony clues (sometimes misleading or false) as to the nature of the universe will be available to the players.
The referee may also indicate possible quests for the characters, using rumor, barrooom conversation, or so-called general knowledge. . . .
In any case, the referee can make or break a campaign, as it is his imagination which the other players use as a springboard to adventure.
The referee is responsible for maintaining the master maps and charts of the universe, and for determining the various effects of natural forces, chance and non-player characters on the adventure. He must settle disputes concerning the rules (and may use his own imagination in doing so, rather than strictly adhering to the letter of the rules). He also acts as a go-between when characters secretly or solitarily act against the world or their comrades.
Nothing there suggests that the referee has licence to disregard the Streetwise mechanics, and decide that the PC doesn't find anything even when the player makes a successful roll against the DC set by the referee.
I'm not really sure that follows since it would be the PC heading out to work the locals to find access to the object of the search and not the player deciding by fiat that it is there to be found. It just doesn't seem to me too different from a PC in D&D, for example, heading to the local market day to get a sack of inconsequentium to make inconsequentium stew. Chances are the GM doesn't have that level of detail on the market and decides, on the fly through some method, whether or not the inconsequentium is there. I'd hardly call that a case of the player introducing elements into the shared fiction in any really significant way - at least not in any way worth arguing whether older school RPGs have tools for the players to direct the story outside of their PC point of view.
In Traveller, the availability of licences issued without hassle, or of high quality guns at low prices (which are the two exampes given under Streetwise) are not "inconsequentium". They are key goods/services that are central to play, as is illustrated (i) by the prevalence of military-background PCs with gun skill, and (ii) by such other skills as Bribery, Forgery and Administration (skill text quoted from Book 1, p 14):
Petty officials can generally be bribed to ignore regulations or porroducmentation, requiring a basic throw of 8+ (plus a cash offer) to do as asked. . . . DMs are allowed: if character has no expertis: -5; Per level of [Bribery] expertise: +1
. . .
Documents necessary for bank transactions, cargo transfers, personal identification, and other purposes are usually closely inspected when officials (police, customs agents, clerks, etc) are encountered (throw =law level of world or higher to avoid inspection). Forged or fake documents are discovered, if inspected on abasic throw of 6+. DM:-2 per level of expertise. . . .
[A]dministration and bribery expertise may affect whether documents are actually inspected. . . .
It's also different from your example because it is not about
the GM deciding, on the fly, whether or not some irrelevant thing is in the market. It's about
the playier making a skill check which, if successful, determines the availability, from local members of illicit subcultures (per Book 1, p 15: "some portions of the lower classes, and trade groups such as workers, the underwod, etc") of the desired goods or services.
It is precisely an example of an old-school RPG having a mechanic whereby a player can influence the shared fiction other than through the causal agency of his/her PC. That's what the skill is for, as stated right there on p 15 of the 1977 rulebook.
you do realize that comes off realling insulting to people who are BOT discriminating AND comic book fans right... and I bet this board has a higher % of comic fans then most on the internet...
