D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

Swarmkeeper · Jan 26, 2019

James Grover said:
I can see why you disagree, but if you rule it that way it is house-rule.

RAW, the Shove special attack can only be done in two ways: as part of "Using an Attack action" as written under the Shoving A Creature (as noted before); and second as a feature of the Shield Master feat, which as has been discussed ad nauseam and also requires the use of an Attack action. Since you can ONLY take Attack actions on your turn, you cannot Shove a Creature outside of your turn, i.e. as an OA reaction.

You are reading "melee attack" as "Attack action", they are two distinct, although similar, things. Again, if it doesn't make sense to follow the RAW, just change it for your game. No harm done if you want to play it that way.

I literally said sword swings and Shoves "both use the Attack Action, both are melee attacks, and both are able to be used as a Reaction". I did not read or say Attack Action = melee attack. My point: if a sword swing uses the Attack Action, is a melee attack, and can be used with a Reaction; AND a shove has the exact same 3 characteristics as the sword swing that I just outlined; then both can be used as a Reaction for an Opportunity Attack.

I think my interpretation is RAW, you think your interpretation is RAW. Both think the other is wrong. But perhaps we're actually both right because, like @DEFCON 1 says above: Rulings not Rules... only I'm righter because I like to give my players more "Yes"es than "No"s.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 26, 2019

Sean Culligan said:
Shoving and grappling fall under the main"Melee Attacks" section, not the "Special Melee Attacks" section. The mention of these melee attacks being special is within the grapple and shoving rules themselves. What makes them "special"? Well that is written in the rule as well... strength checks.
They are still melee attacks.

Specific trumps general. They are "special" melee attacks (as you say, requiring a Strength check and not an attack roll) and only available under certain conditions, not all the time. Those times are when you use the Attack action, not during an OA. Again, if you choose to ignore the RAW, that is your prerogative.

Sean Culligan · Jan 26, 2019

James Grover said:
Specific trumps general. They are "special" melee attacks (as you say, requiring a Strength check and not an attack roll) and only available under certain conditions, not all the time. Those times are when you use the Attack action, not during an OA. Again, if you choose to ignore the RAW, that is your prerogative.

Opportunity attack specifically mentions "melee attack", not sword swing.
Page 192 "Attack" specifically states that a sword swing is an "attack action".
Therefore using this logic a sword swing is not allowed as an opportunity attack.... specifically.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 26, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
I literally said sword swings and Shoves "both use the Attack Action, both are melee attacks, and both are able to be used as a Reaction". I did not read or say Attack Action = melee attack. My point: if a sword swing uses the Attack Action, is a melee attack, and can be used with a Reaction; AND a shove has the exact same 3 characteristics as the sword swing that I just outlined; then both can be used as a Reaction for an Opportunity Attack.

I think my interpretation is RAW, you think your interpretation is RAW. Both think the other is wrong. But perhaps we're actually both right because, like @DEFCON 1 says above: Rulings not Rules... only I'm righter because I like to give my players more "Yes"es than "No"s.

But a Shove cannot, RAW, be used as a Reaction. You are welcome to say it is until you are blue in the face, you are welcome to house-rule if you want, but is not RAW. It can only be used as an Attack action. An Attack action can be a sword swing, certainly, or a Shove as a "special" attack, but it is "special" and not the same. Regardless, Attack actions (not melee attacks) can only be used during your turn, not on another's which is a when a Reaction comes for the OA.

And giving your players more yeses than nos is what house-ruling is often about.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 26, 2019

Sean Culligan said:
Opportunity attack specifically mentions "melee attack", not sword swing.
Page 192 "Attack" states that a sword swing is an "attack action".
Therefore using this logic a sword swing is not allowed as an opportunity attack....

No, the quote is:

"With this action [the Attack action], you make one melee or ranged attack." That is what allows you to swing your sword using the Attack action. The Attack action can also be used for making "special" attacks (Grapple and Shove). Making a melee attack does not allow you to Grapple or Shove, using the Attack action does.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 26, 2019

Finally, I assume this might have been posted before but don't recall seeing it.

From the latest version of Crawford and the Sage Advice Compendim:

Can an opportunity attack be used to make a grapple or a shove? Grappling and shoving are special melee attacks that require the Attack action (PH, 195). An opportunity attack is a special reaction. Take the Ready action if you want to attempt a grapple or a shove as a reaction.

So, no, you cannot, RAW, use a grapple or shove as part of an opportunity attack. If you don't agree with it, house-rule it otherwise.

I want to be clear: I don't see any problem if anyone chooses to house-rule it. I probably won't for my game simple but that is my choice to follow RAW in this case (I already have enough house-rules myself LOL!

).

Sean Culligan · Jan 26, 2019

James Grover said:
No, the quote is:

"With this action [the Attack action], you make one melee or ranged attack." That is what allows you to swing your sword using the Attack action. The Attack action can also be used for making "special" attacks (Grapple and Shove). Making a melee attack does not allow you to Grapple or Shove, using the Attack action does.

You're not following me.
If swinging a sword is defined as using an attack action (p192) and shoving and grappling are also defined as using an attack action (p195) and you disallow shoves and grapples as opportunity attacks because they use the attack action then logically you can't allow sword swings for the same reason.

Swarmkeeper · Jan 26, 2019

James Grover said:
But a Shove cannot, RAW, be used as a Reaction. You are welcome to say it is until you are blue in the face, you are welcome to house-rule if you want, but is not RAW. It can only be used as an Attack action. An Attack action can be a sword swing, certainly, or a Shove as a "special" attack, but it is "special" and not the same. Regardless, Attack actions (not melee attacks) can only be used during your turn, not on another's which is a when a Reaction comes for the OA.

And giving your players more yeses than nos is what house-ruling is often about.

What (said in response to the highlighted bit above)??? Why not? Can you cite that rule, please, which says Attacks in general or perhaps just Shoves specifically cannot be used as a Reaction?

Here's what I see:

[SECTION]READY (PHB p193)
Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn.

First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it. Examples include "If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I'll pull the lever that opens it," and "If the goblin steps next to me, I move away."[/SECTION]

Examples from my table:
Player: I Ready an Action. If the goblin steps between my PC and the cliff, I Shove the goblin off the cliff.
DM: Nice.

And yours:
Player: I Ready an Action. If the goblin steps between my PC and the cliff, I Shove the goblin off the cliff.
DM: NOPERS! My interpretation of RAW indicates that you can't make a shove as a Reaction.
Player: Really? Can you cite the passage?
etc...

Sean Culligan · Jan 26, 2019

What makes a shove or a grapple "special"? You seem to indicate that it is because they use an attack action whereas I am stating it is only due to the strength check. The attack action doesn't make them "special" and the way you are ruling it here makes them less special if anything.

The shove and grapple aren't exceptions to the opportunity attack because they mention they are used as attack actions. ALL attacks mention they use the attack action. The opportunity attack is the exception..

I am special but that doesn't stop me from attacking when the opportunity arises, LOL.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 26, 2019

Sean Culligan said:
You're not following me.
If swinging a sword is defined as using an attack action (p192) and shoving and grappling are also defined as using an attack action (p195) and you disallow shoves and grapples as opportunity attacks because they use the attack action then logically you can't allow sword swings for the same reason.

I am following you, I just don't agree with you, and neither do the RAW.

Swinging a sword is a melee attack. An Attack action grants you a melee or ranged attack.
Shoving is a "special" melee attack (not a normal one). An Attack action allows you to Shove as a "special" melee attack.
Opportunity attack grants you a melee attack, not a "special" melee attack.
The "special" is specific, not general. And specific rules trump general.

That is why Crawford ruled you cannot make a Shove as part of an OA. See post #201 for the official ruling text.

D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

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