A 5e Swordmage?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm actually fine with compound word names for the concept, because it compliments the compound nature of the concept. You're more than a fighter, more than a wizard. You're a Duskblade/Swordmage/Spellsword/whatever. But the best non-compound name I've seen was Pathfinder's Magus, which is a perfectly fine name.

And I would also love to see the concept get a truly dedicated class. It's an amazing concept, and one that I almost always try to build in some manner whenever I play DnD. Heck, I've got a Final Fantasy Red Mage tattoo on my back (2nd highest Black Magic, 2nd highest White Magic, can use most weapons and armor). I've always adored the jack of all trades character.

As far as building one, I actually came reasonably close with Hexblade 1/Sorcerer X with the SCAG cantrips for melee damage, and blasty spells for, well, blasting. I went Divine Soul Sorcerer which also got me a 1/short rest bump to any saving through, and having access to the shield spell made me deceptively tanky. Even tankier thanks to my Divine Soul Sorcerer healing spells. You could play an Eladrin Elf for a 1/short rest teleport, take misty step, and really pump out some mobile damage, or if you manifest Spring Eladrin you can teleport allies to safety. It's a pretty versatile build and it's the best thing in 5e I've found that scratches that Red Mage itch.

That’s a pretty good build for it!

I don’t like Magus, tbh. It’s a generic feeling name that brings to mind a primary spellcaster. Like a title for a wizard.

All the [word]blades all imply swords as the primary weapon, as well, which isn’t ideal.

Still, my favorite is Spellblade.

Duskblade feels like a more specific concept, rather than a broad one. Same with Hexblade, and even Swordmage is what I’d use for the more scholarly subclass.

The more I think about a low-workload solution, the more I think a Monk subclass could do it really well. Hand pick the spells and effects, just like other monk subs, and learn from the mistakes of the 4 elements monk.

What spells would folks expect to see as part of such a subclass? Especially, what at-will abilities could we give, and would we want to see abilities that compete with flurry of blows, or instead try to keep the monk using it?

Probably stick to stuff like Absorb Elements; Armor of Agythis, etc. maybe give an ability to use lightning pure as an attack action, so you can lightning lure and then flurry?

To get the old Swordmage feel, Ritual Casting?
 

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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Actually, I'd forgotten about it until today but the Sterling Vermin class the Magus is a pretty decent looking arcane half-caster. You choose your college at 1st level and that can actually change things up so that a magus of the arcane order mixes swordplay and wizardly magic while a magus of the sylvan circle mixes swordplay and druidic style magic. It also has an ability to enspell their blade which changes the damage type (arcane order deals force, sylvan circle deals poison) and unleash the mark to inflict an additional effect. The enspell blade is kind of similar to what I was thinking of the other night. Makes me think I must have half remembered the class when coming up with ideas.
 

So, I still say that I don't believe that the "Swordmage", or whatever it's called (please hivemind a better name, please please please no compound words), suffers from not being based on an old literary concept like the other classes, but it could be based on newer concepts. And the more I think on it, the more "using magic as a weapon" feels like it could be a broad enough concept to base a class around. By making it a half-caster, it would be deserving of it's own unique spells, as well as possibly stealing some of the Warlock and Paladin's stuff.

Weapon Bond could be a good central point for the class. Taking some ideas from Book of Nine Swords could also work, though I feel like that could step on the toes of the expansions I'm building for the Monk. A class built around creating a magic weapon in a game that doesn't assume magic items could offer a lot of opportunity.

Hmm. "Channeller"? (As in they channel magic through their weapon. Maybe there is a subclass that does it though their shield instead?)
The literary concept/place in the world will probably be a better place to start with creating a name for the class rather than the mechanics ("I want a gish half-caster")
There are currently 5 or 6 gishy character concepts in 5e at the moment. If you included UA and reskinning divine magic, you might be able to hit 10. Your name and concept needs to distinguish this class from those in terms of their place in the world.

Other questions that you might want to answer when designing this class' abilities:
What would they be doing round-by-round in combat?
Are they buffing themselves then making weapon attacks? - Extra attack and bonus to concentration saves perhaps?
Do they stand toe-to-toe with enemies in the front line like a Fighter? Or more mobile and hit-and-run like a Monk?
Are they creating a spell-like effect (even if it is produced from their weapon) most rounds? - More spell slots or weapon-based cantrips.
Are they combining weapon attacks with spells? (Such as lightning lure or Misty Step then making weapon attacks) - Something like the Eldritch knight's ability to make bonus action attack after casting a spell/cantrip.
Or do their weapon attacks have the effect of spells? (Smite spells, creating Thunderwave by striking the ground, throwing your weapon along a line hitting everything in it's path, blasting fire out of your weapon as you sweep it in an arc etc.) - Spell selection and reskinning.

What would the class be doing out of combat?
Do they even get spells that aren't focused out of their weapon? Can you see this class casting comprehend languages? Charm person? How about Fly or enhance ability?
Do they have Ritual casting?
How many skill proficiencies do they get, and what skills?
Is this class particularly good at something out of combat? Evaluating opponents? Spotting magical traps?

If you have four players sitting down at a session zero to come up with a balanced party, and one says that they'd like to play this class, would the other players take it as the "Offensive caster" slot being covered, or the "melee front-liner" slot? Or something else?
 

jmartkdr

First Post
Hmm. "Channeller"? (As in they channel magic through their weapon. Maybe there is a subclass that does it though their shield instead?)
The literary concept/place in the world will probably be a better place to start with creating a name for the class rather than the mechanics ("I want a gish half-caster")
There are currently 5 or 6 gishy character concepts in 5e at the moment. If you included UA and reskinning divine magic, you might be able to hit 10. Your name and concept needs to distinguish this class from those in terms of their place in the world.

Most of the concepts people are talking about are very much frontliners who enhance their fighting with magic, like the old Eldritch Knight prestige class, the hexblade, the swordmage, and the magus. A spell-based skirmisher should be possible, but I'd call that a variant or secondary build. Definitely more like a fighter than a rogue or monk.

Onto your other questions that you might want to answer when designing this class' abilities, and how I would answer them:

What would they be doing round-by-round in combat? Hitting people with magic-enhanced weapon attacks.

Are they buffing themselves then making weapon attacks? yes; it's what they do - Extra attack and bonus to concentration saves perhaps? Both are good ideas

Do they stand toe-to-toe with enemies in the front line like a Fighter? Yes Or more mobile and hit-and-run like a Monk? Not normally, but making this an option is better than not.

Are they creating a spell-like effect (even if it is produced from their weapon) most rounds? yes - More spell slots or weapon-based cantrips. a mix, for balance sake.

Are they combining weapon attacks with spells? (Such as lightning lure or Misty Step then making weapon attacks) - Something like the Eldritch knight's ability to make bonus action attack after casting a spell/cantrip. No, and I think this is important: the concept isn't you cast *then* attack - casting and attacking are the same thing. You can already make a character who alternates.

Or do their weapon attacks have the effect of spells? (Smite spells, creating Thunderwave by striking the ground, throwing your weapon along a line hitting everything in it's path, blasting fire out of your weapon as you sweep it in an arc etc.) Generally yes, although I'd probably phrase it as "their spells include weapon attacks" since it would mesh with the rules better. - Spell selection and reskinning. The spells needed to realize this don't really exist yet - some do, but a couple dozen new spells would be needed.

What would the class be doing out of combat? Depends on the subclass, but generally caster stuff.
Do they even get spells that aren't focused out of their weapon? Can you see this class casting comprehend languages? Charm person? How about Fly or enhance ability? Absolutely - they're still magic-users, and no magic-user is restrited to combat-only spells.
Do they have Ritual casting? Arcane ones do, but other magic traditions might not.
How many skill proficiencies do they get, and what skills? Normal two, but with a fairly broad selection: athletics, any of the int skills, probably intimidation.
Is this class particularly good at something out of combat? Evaluating opponents? Spotting magical traps? Detect magic is definitely an option, and other utility spells would be available.

If you have four players sitting down at a session zero to come up with a balanced party, and one says that they'd like to play this class, would the other players take it as the "Offensive caster" slot being covered, or the "melee front-liner" slot? Or something else? You're a frontliner, generally - like a fighter or paladin, but with a different array of secondary options. Of course you could focus yourself in a different direction, but that's a specific choice.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Could this general issue be (soft) solved by the introduction of higher-level spells that affect and/or can be used alongside melee attacks (much like the SCAG cantrips and paladin smite spells)?

I would believe so, but not too much higher, they should be in the range to use with a Fighter EK build. For practical purposes in most campaigns EK will only ever get to cast first or second level spells.
The Bladesinger feels more gishy but has very limited ability to tank.

The EK should have an ability to recover a spell slot on a short rest (somewhere along the character progression) and the sub class would suddenly feel a lot more gishy.
Personally at this point in time if I wanted a gish build I would go EK and War Wizard.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Actually, I'd forgotten about it until today but the Sterling Vermin class the Magus is a pretty decent looking arcane half-caster. You choose your college at 1st level and that can actually change things up so that a magus of the arcane order mixes swordplay and wizardly magic while a magus of the sylvan circle mixes swordplay and druidic style magic. It also has an ability to enspell their blade which changes the damage type (arcane order deals force, sylvan circle deals poison) and unleash the mark to inflict an additional effect. The enspell blade is kind of similar to what I was thinking of the other night. Makes me think I must have half remembered the class when coming up with ideas.

Yea, I played one for about a year, it's a really solid class. The arcane order subclass even has the teleport to attacked allies ability, like one of the 4e swordmages. I believe it's up to 6 subclasses now in its most recent release.

I hesitated to mention it since the OP said no homebrew, but there are several options by reputable homebrew publishers that fit the swordmage niche quite nicely.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
...

Are they combining weapon attacks with spells? (Such as lightning lure or Misty Step then making weapon attacks) - Something like the Eldritch knight's ability to make bonus action attack after casting a spell/cantrip. No, and I think this is important: the concept isn't you cast *then* attack - casting and attacking are the same thing. You can already make a character who alternates.

...

Do they even get spells that aren't focused out of their weapon? Can you see this class casting comprehend languages? Charm person? How about Fly or enhance ability? Absolutely - they're still magic-users, and no magic-user is restrited to combat-only spells.

The two answers I bolded above seem a bit contradictory...
 

jmartkdr

First Post
The two answers I bolded above seem a bit contradictory...

I'm not sure how - a fighter attacks with weapons, but that doesn't mean they can't also use skills.

But if you don't have the blended spells, you don't have a swordmage. That's their primary means of attacking.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I'm not sure how - a fighter attacks with weapons, but that doesn't mean they can't also use skills.

But if you don't have the blended spells, you don't have a swordmage. That's their primary means of attacking.

But what I'm saying is that if your way of casting is to blend sword and spell into a single thing, then it's weird that you would start casting differently out of combat.
 

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