Pathfinder 1E A practical guide to Stealth

After spending many hours reading the forum descriptions and debates about Stealth, and even starting a few threads with specific questions, I would like to present what I have come up with so far. This is meant to help me keep everything straight in my head when one of my players uses Stealth.


The following is a combination of RAW, RAI, and statements made by PF developers in other threads. I simplified the exact rules and definitions in some places to Keep It Short and Simple (my version of the KISS rule). This is meant to be a reminder of HOW things work, not just a complete listing of all the rules! So yes, I know there's more kinds of Cover than Regular (which is my own term) and Total, that's not the point.


Please let me know if there's anything that obviously contradicts RAW, nothing here is intended to be a house-rule. If you'd like to know where a statement comes from, I'd be glad to explain.


If you disagree with a RAI, please feel free to mention how you do things, I'm always open to new ideas. And if it makes sense to me, I'll gladly change!


Due to forum formatting limitations, '*' are main bullets under the heading, and '-' are sub-bullets (I used several to get some indentation). Hope the formatting makes sense, especially if you don't have a wide screen.


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C/C = Cover or Concealment (of any kind). Cover is something big enough to hide behind (wall, pillar, desk, etc.). Concealment is something that obscures vision (darkness, underbrush, fog, etc.). C/C can be “Regular” or “Total”. You cannot be seen with Total C/C!


Lighting and C/C
* Objects (underbrush, crowds, pillars, fog) can provide C/C even in Normal and Bright lighting conditions.
---- Invisibility is the only (magical) condition that allows you to use Stealth in Normal or Bright lighting
* Dim and Dark lighting (as perceived by the viewer) automatically provide C/C from that viewer.


Rule #1 : Stealth is not invisibility! Everyone with line-of-sight to you has a chance to notice you any time you're not in Total C/C. All such observers get a Stealth/Perception check ("S/P check") to notice you. However, if you succeed, they are not at all aware of your presence, and even if they happen to attack the square you’re in, you still get a 50% miss chance on all attacks except area and targeted spells (which thus acts very much like invisibility).


To be able to enter Stealth
* If there are no observers, “using Stealth” means moving silently (which may prevent the guards around the corner that you don’t know about from hearing you).
---- But, if you’re just walking down a hall "using Stealth" in this way and someone comes around the corner unexpectedly, they will see you
* If there are no observers, you can also get in C/C as preparation (or use a special ability like Camouflage).
---- For example, if you hear a guard coming you can try to get in C/C before he turns the corner
* If there are observers, and you’re already in C/C : you can use Stealth on your next action (see below).
* If there are observers, and you’re not in C/C : you must “break” the observation AND get in C/C :
---– Create a diversion (Bluff), or
---- Use a special ability like Hide in Plain Sight, or
---- Temporarily blind the observer, or
---- Get to Total C/C (which accomplishes both goals at once, but note your opponent could move to see you before you can use Stealth next round), etc.
---- From a PF developer : “having a blurry outline or displacement is not enough to enter Stealth” [with observers present]


Once in C/C AND using Stealth
* If you move from C/C to C/C (even with no C/C in-between, even thru Normal or Bright lighting), make a S/P check to remain unnoticed. Per observer, you will end your action :
---- In regular C/C and observed : standard C/C attack rules apply; you cannot use Stealth next round
---- In regular C/C and un-observed : observer doesn't know you’re there, so you can't be attacked; you can use Stealth next round
---- In Total C/C and observed : standard C/C attack rules apply; you can use Stealth next round if the observer does not move to keep you in sight
---- In Total C/C and un-observed : observer doesn't know you’re there, so you can't be attacked; you can use Stealth next round
---- If you do not end your move in C/C, your Stealth ends at the end of your action, and everyone can see you.
* If you leave C/C to attack someone, make a S/P check to approach them unnoticed.
---- Your target loses their DEX bonus to AC (this has been confirmed by a PF developer), and you add Sneak Attack damage, but your Stealth ends after your first attack.
* In both of the above cases, all observers with line-of-sight get a S/P check to notice you while moving, and if they see you they may shout a warning, or use a Readied attack or AoO, etc.
* Even if you do absolutely nothing (stay behind C/C), all observers with line-of-sight get a S/P check to notice you, unless the C/C itself is Total (around the corner from the guards, very heavy fog, etc.). If noticed, standard C/C attack rules apply.

Stealth is quite a weak sneak attack option for a rogue, compared to simple flanking, I feel too much so. How you interpret the rules pretty much makes or breaks the stealth sneak attack as a tactical option. Ihad a stealth rogue in my 4E game, with its much more liberal Stealth rules. That got to be a bit too much at higher levels, but I still feel it was a nice option and ought to be possible to do.

A lot of this is not unambiguous RAW, but possible interpretations of RAW. It would be interesting if you could cite sources. Overall, your interpretation makes Stealth almost impossible to maintain (roll every round, cannot hide without c/c AND distraction), but that might be RAI. No way to know without checking your sources.

You do not handle sniping and/or hiding after attacking.

ZenFox42 said:

Rule #1 : Stealth is not invisibility! Everyone with line-of-sight to you has a chance to notice you any time you're not in Total C/C. All such observers get a Stealth/Perception check ("S/P check") to notice you. However, if you succeed, they are not at all aware of your presence, and even if they happen to attack the square you’re in, you still get a 50% miss chance on all attacks except area and targeted spells (which thus acts very much like invisibility).

Click to expand...

Big point of contention here already - Raw doesn't say anything about the situation when you're not moving. Could you avoid making Stealth rolls by simply delaying? Does someone walking into an ambush without spending actions to look around get a Perception roll at all? As always, sources would be nice.

Also, doesn't invisibility also confirm to Rule#1, only with a huge bonus (+20/+40).

ZenFox42 said:

* If there are observers, and you’re already in C/C : you can use Stealth on your next action (see below).
* If there are observers, and you’re not in C/C : you must “break” the observation AND get in C/C :
---- From a PF developer : “having a blurry outline or displacement is not enough to enter Stealth” [with observers present]

Click to expand...

I find this ambiguous, especially in regards to attacks. Does this mean that if I am in c/c, attack, then take a step, I can immediately attempt Stealth? Or do I need to spend a move action? Can I use Stealth after attacking at all? What does "next action" mean in this context, do you mean next round (as in next time your initiative comes up)? Again, source would be nice.

ZenFox42 said:

---- In regular C/C and observed : standard C/C attack rules apply; you cannot use Stealth next round

Click to expand...

Does "observed" here mean "when you fail a Stealth roll when moving"? How else could you be using stealth and be observed? Does it mean out of line of sight?

ZenFox42 said:

---- Your target loses their DEX bonus to AC (this has been confirmed by a PF developer), and you add Sneak Attack damage, but your Stealth ends after your first attack.
* Even if you do absolutely nothing (stay behind C/C), all observers with line-of-sight get a S/P check to notice you, unless the C/C itself is Total (around the corner from the guards, very heavy fog, etc.). If noticed, standard C/C attack rules apply.

Click to expand...

Again, source would be nice as none of this is unambiguous in RAW.

Seems us foxes take a great interest in Stealth ^^

Starfox -

Ok, I can see now from your questions that much of the summary is "logical conclusions from the rules" (LCFTR?). Or is that just RAI?

(Oh bother, I'm having problems getting the formatted quotes working)

Starfox said : "Raw doesn't say anything about the situation when you're not moving." (and this also addresses your very last question)
1. Only Total C/C means that others can't see you. Thus "Regular" C/C means that others can at least see some part of you.
2. Stealth (RAW) : "Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you."
So if you've used Stealth while moving to get to C/C (so you end your round "in Stealth"), if you're in Regular C/C that means parts of you are visible to others. I would give everyone with line-of-sight to you a S/P check because you're "in Stealth", and if you win they don't notice you, but if they win they can target you with weapon or magical attacks (subject to the restrictions of your C/C).

Starfox said : "Does someone walking into an ambush without spending actions to look around get a Perception roll at all?"
1. Stealth (RAW) : "Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you."
2. Perception (RAW) : "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
So unless the ambushers are in Total C/C, there's a chance that you might notice them, so yes you get a Perception check (technically your DM should roll for you, so as to not give anything away).

Starfox said : "I find this ambiguous, especially in regards to attacks."
The four possible conditions that you were referring to (Regular vs. Total C/C, observed vs. not) are for moving with Stealth only, attacks do not apply. All your questions following do not apply. The next bullet in the summary covers attacking : you always lose Stealth after your first attack. At that point, go back to the section in the summary about what you have to do to be able to use Stealth again.

Regarding those 4 possible conditions : yes, "observed" means you lost the S/P check while you were moving, and "next action" means the next time your initiative comes up.

It seems that maybe the formatting of your last quote regarding DEX and AC, and Sneak Attack damage, went weird. Did you have a question regarding that?

Hope this clarifies things somewhat! Cheers!

P.S. - yeah, it's a fox thing, others wouldn't understand.

I REALLY wish Pazio posted something official on Stealth.

I made a similar attempt to yours to try and read out what the Stealth rules really say for use IMC, which ended up making the opposite judgement from your in almost every case. That is, my reading was Stealth-friendly (and in the end probably overly so) where your's is Stealth-hostile - at least compared to mine.

My reading is here, but it is at present not really polished enough to argue around - some of that text is interpretations, some are house rules.

I'm tempted to dig deep into this like you did, but I don't have the time at the moment.

Starfox -

Please re-read my previous post, I initially posted it before your last post, but was editing it for quite some time. It's done now.

You might find these threads useful :

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt9j&page=1?Stealth-Errata

and

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q8oq?6-questions-about-Stealth

I started the second one with some questions I had not been able to resolve on my own, but I already had had some ideas about how I thought Stealth should work. But over the course of talking with people (especially Nearyn and Shadowlord), I reversed several of my ideas! There are many good "what-if" scenarios in that thread that are very well explained by them.

Fixed the formatting

Ok. There's two parts to your last quote of the summary. I've already addressed the "even if you do nothing" part.

Regarding the "a PF developer has confirmed that you lose your DEX bonus to AC..." part :
1. That can be found at http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt9j&page=2?Stealth-Errata#64
2. And under Rogue/Sneak Attack (RAW) : "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"
3. And under Stealth (RAW) : "Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful." So if you get multiple attacks per round, your Stealth ends after the first attack roll.

Did this address what you wanted?
Cheers!

Have read those two threads now, at least cursorily.

I saw very little useful in the first thread (Stealth errata) except Jason Bulman's comments.

The second thread was much more concrete, largely because your questions at the beginning gave things there structure. Agree that Nearyn and Shadowlord had much sensible to say. Still, I it only peripherally discussed the questions I find most open.



My own thoughts and question:

The absolutely most unclear part of the stealth rules is "Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.", with most people seeming to read this so that you need both c/c AND distraction. That is the main thing I feel a source would be needed for, and was barely discussed in the thread. Additionally, distraction is not defined - Bluff is mentioned as one possibility, but it is otherwise left open. Is a barbarian swiping a greatsword at you a distraction? That would seem natural, but without further text we cannot say.

This end up in two completely different readings for me, both with about as much support in the rules.

A) You need to both be in c/c and have a distraction to use Stealth.
B) You need to either have a distraction or be in c/c to use Stealth.

"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you." is also problematic - what does it mean to be "aware". And how does that interact with the first problematic quote above? Is this the text people use to motivate the BOTH in reading A above, and if so, how?There seems to be a consensus that it should be extra hard to use Stealth after attacking in a round, or that using stealth for archery is especially bad. I don't feel that is covered in the rules or the errata. Regarding how you read "Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement" you could stealth after each attack (no action reading) or between attacks as a 5 ft step (part of movement reading). Other than breaking your current stealth, attacking does not seem to have any particular effect on what happens later in the round. Nor is there anything that prevents you from using stealth to hide several times in a round.

Those threads you brought up also spoke a lot about total cover (lack of line of sight), but I don't see any references at all to that in the Stealth rules. The only possibility being readings of "aware" and "observed".

Finally, my reading of "Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you" is that, if there is nobody around when you use Stealth, you automatically succeed. There is no mention of what happens on their turn - this is all about the stealther's turn in my reading. On their turn, they can take move actions to try to find hidden things, but that it their action. The question hereis if someone who is hiding but not acting is an "observable stimulus" as described in the Perception skill.

Once enemies are on the scene, do you need to make new Stealth rolls as long as you don't take any actions? I can't really see that you have, by RAW. Stealth is not an action, so you are not making a Stealth action on later turn, and thus not making any Stealth rolls unless you move or attack. I think that if you move, you have to use Stealth per "Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement", but not if you remain still. The errata covers a special situation - moving from cover to cover - and doesn't apply if you remain in place.

I can see how the sniping stunts support a more strict reading of Stealth - it becomes pretty pointless with my reading as someone remaining in cover could just hide again without any special rules. You'll notice that in my house rule version of this, I assumed a successful sniping meant you were never spotted - that your location remains unknown.

I will try and pin this down into concrete questions. The first question is by far the most important. I will also give my answer to each in italics.

1: Which reading is correct, and what is the background of this reading?
A) You need to both be in c/c and have a distraction to use Stealth.
B) You need to either have a distraction or be in c/c to use Stealth.
B, simply because I can't find any support for A.

2: What is the effect, if any, of having total cover?
None. Possibly, you could be assumed to be invisible and get +20 to Stealth (after all, improved cover does give +10, see cover)

3: When can you attempt to use Stealth - anytime (no action) or as a part of movement?
As a part of movement, including a 5 ft. step. Sniping is an exception to this, and is a move action.

4: When are you forced to use Stealth? Each round, or as a part of movement?
As a part of movement. Doing something that draws attention, such as attacking or casing a spell with verbal components automatically breaks Stealth.

I think this statement is why most people think you need both C/C and distraction to use Stealth while observed :
Stealth (RAW) : "If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind."
That right there is "distraction" (not looking at you) and "getting to C/C". Hence it follows that both are needed (in one form or another) to use Stealth while observers are present.

I think the wording for Stealth uses "aware" because there are many ways one creature can be aware of another : sight, hearing, smell, blindsense. But sight is the most common, that's why C/C and line-of-sight are most often discussed.

Starfox said : "Once enemies are on the scene, do you need to make new Stealth rolls as long as you don't take any actions?"
So you're alone in a room, and you hear some guards coming down the hallway. There's a barrel in the room you're in, so you decide to duck behind it. As you move, you can use Stealth (because you are unobserved) to move silently, so the guards won't hear you and be alerted (so there's a S/P check). But the barrel doesn't provide Total Cover, so there's a chance they could see some parts of you.

1. Stealth (RAW) : "Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you."
2. Perception (RAW) : "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."

Once the guards enter the room, they get a reactive Perception check to automatically spot you behind the barrel. Since you are "in Stealth", that's another S/P check.

Total Cover is better than "regular" Cover because if your opponents can't see you, they get no check at all.

And since #1 above says that you must make a S/P check anytime someone might notice you, S/P checks are required anytime anyone has line-of-sight to you, whether you are moving or not.

Hope that helps! Cheers!