TSR Rob Kuntz Recounts The Origins Of D&D

In this interesting article from Kotaku, Rob Kuntz relates a history of early TSR that differs somewhat from the narrative we usually hear. It delves into the relationship between Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson (D&D's co-creators) and the actual development of the game, which dates back to Arneson in 1971.
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In this interesting article from Kotaku, Rob Kuntz relates a history of early TSR that differs somewhat from the narrative we usually hear. It delves into the relationship between Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson (D&D's co-creators) and the actual development of the game, which dates back to Arneson in 1971.

 

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darjr

I crit!
Hold on. Griff is VERY passionate about this topic. Understandably so. He does have a film to sell but having met him, “selling it” is utterly secondary to getting history “right”.

Though I think Rob is doing just fine, and forums are sometimes exactly for folks to ask their questions and challenge other posters. Griff, so far I think it’s making your points and Robs stronger.
 


When I see people questioning Rob Kuntz I have to wade in as well.

It's easy to go online and be yet another self made expert.

So my first question is: Who are you that you think you can disparage Rob Kuntz freely while hiding behind internet anonymity.

My second question is: what are you sources?

I saw a post stating something along the lines of: Others disagree with you. What others disagree with Rob? Using that language is as good as when a politician says: Mistakes have been made. It's a weak tactic, cite your sources and name the names.

Somehow it has been forgotten how research is conducted. Rob is a Primary Source, why attack him? You should be asking him questions.

Most of the arguments being posited against Rob are the same old arguments. They lack sophistication and really do not add anything to the discussion of the history of RPG's.

I am going to pose a serious question for everyone to ruminate on.

Q: How does Gary Gygax learn to play RPG's as a referee?

A: He goes to Minnesota and plays with Arneson and his group of players.


There are letter indicating that this trip occurs and one of the sources from Secrets of Blackmoor told me this story which I recorded.

It is supported by Rob's narrative of: We tried to reproduce what Arneson had done the next morning, but couldn't.

If Gygax does not know how to run an RPG style game, despite a lot of later efforts to create a smoke screen surrounding this issue, why is it the only person on the planet that can teach him to play an RPG is Dave Arneson?

Because Arneson invented what I call the Adventure Game and most people call RPG's.

The flow of information only flows one way - Arneson to Gygax. Without Dave Arneson to teach Gygax this game style, Gygax would be a nobody.

As to who created D&D, it's a collaboration. They did it together. Arneson did a lot more than provide 18 pages of notes. There are entire manuscripts that have been found now that were not typed by Gygax.

Griff

Well, Hi Griff! I believe that it's settled down here a bit and we are back to even or at least agree<>disagree parity.

As to, "We tried to reproduce what Arneson had done the next morning, but couldn't," my substantive text in the "Two Daves, Two Gygaxs and Two Kuntzs article which I allowed Kotaku to reference is:

"While back in my home away from home Gary and I convened back at the dining table. He brought forth hex paper (large hexes used for board game designs like his Alexander the Great, Dunkirk, et al) and colored pencils and ink pens. We then talked.

Gary noted that the concept Arneson had unveiled [the night before] could be used for crafting stories--an ongoing story-making factory as I understood him.

This can be construed as Gary seeing the opportunity as suggested--for making stories. That he was disappointed with the two 1 hour sessions we ran through and that he immediately began a communication with Dave and arranged for that trip is of course supportive of your POV. Because Dave had no rules (except in head, with his players and as cues and ready systems already derived through play, i.e., "the notes") was the factor for Gary not fully understanding the concept even after that first session (even though we all played it and enjoyed it with no hitch). That these rules "are strictly fantasy" (EGG, Forward to D&D) also exposes why some organization was not grasped--it was a conceptual system, and every other game preceding D&D of the "tabletop" variety were MATERIAL systems with all of their organizational rules up front and not at all permeable as the Fantasy RPG engine allowed, at least then.
 
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Rob-

This is the part I think I'm not fully grokking. I know it means a lot to you, so I'm trying make sure I'm following it!

Most of us are familiar with variations of the "notes" story- in other words, the difficulties (supposed or real) that Gygax had in transforming Arneson's game into something that could be published and played.

What do you mean by a conceptual system? If D&D was later reduced down to rules, did that make it a material system? Or are you saying that the ability to play "outside the rules" is what made it conceptual?

(PS- if you're going to address this in your column, I can wait!)

I cover this in Dave Arneson's True Genius; and NO, I'm not trying to sell you the book! :) But it is covered in full therein. VERY BRIEFLY (consider this a toyish abstract): What we do in RPGs is mostly self-organized imagination, constantly changing except when we need "mechanics" to adjudicate outcomes. Thus Arneson's systems architecture is an interdependent fusing of Conceptual and Mechanical systems, a super system which has no historical antecedent that I have found (to date).
 

Well, I tend to think that this is complicated. Wesley should always get a tip of the cap for his role in the beginning (Braunstein, Blackmoor, Greyhawk, get it?).

But he wasn't really down with RPGs. I know! And Braunstein wasn't really designed for the roleplaying- that was player driven. So, I think he gets just the right amount of credit- the mention.

How do you know?

Sky is Green - I know!

Right from the beginning your arguments are shallow and not very sophisticated.

I would say that you do not know enough about what Braunstein is to really pass judgment on it.

If you did know, you would realize that Braunstein is a kind of role playing game. Having played it and examined what remains from it, I would say that it is in many ways more of a role playing game than D&D because one actually assumes a role.

Arneson's brilliancy was to take Wesely's method and use it in order to create a shared reality. Yet there is a polarity within these designs. As the design moves toward a controlled world experience, then the player to player interaction is diluted.

These are very different Game Engines, yet I don't presume to say one is an RPG, or not. The real issue is to understand what the game is simulating and why. Arneson's game begins as a Braunstein, or at least he calls it that. The play descriptions from both Corner of the Table Top and all of his players support this as fact.

Wesely's invention has its own genius designed into it. One can use Wesely's design to model social interactions between people. It is a profound leap. I would compare it to Machiavelli's, The Prince in game form.

In fact, I would say that under certain circumstances even a D&D game can switch between game engines. You can see a referee employ Blackmoor play methods, then switch to Braunstein style, and then go back to Blackmoor. This is the beauty of these systems, you can easily use all of them without even knowing you are using all of them.

Arneson changes the Blackmoor Game Engine creating something entirely new. The label of Role Playing is to me a misnomer. Wesely's game IS a role playing game. Arneson's game is more about interacting with and altering reality.

The play style for Blackmoor is cycled into all other games that follow. Greyhawk actually does not change the play style at all. Greyhawk is merely a Blackmoor, as is D&D.

Might I suggest a good book for understanding how RPG's work that approaches the problem from a systems perspective, it's called Dave Arneson's True Genius by Rob Kuntz.

My name is Griff

P.S. you also fail to acknowledge Duane Jenkins and his BrownStone RPG - You don't know.
 




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