Converting True Dragons

Cleon

Legend
We can do every round if you want, but some kind of recharge time just seems right. I'd lean slightly toward 1d2 rounds. I don't mind much one way or the other about a per minute refresh for each breath weapon.

How about we give the three Aligned Dragon Rulers 1d2 recharge plus 1 minute refresh and the Supreme Dragon Ruler the breathe-every-round plus 1 minute refresh?

I can go along with your dragon lists, using the MCA Neutral Dragons you have in green there.

Suits me.

Sorcerer and cleric casting is ok by me. We'll have to choose some domains, though I guess Chaos and Law are a couple of obvious choices.

We could just give them a selection of the domains their "subservient dragons" can access. Or maybe ALL of their domains?

I would go with immunities to all charm, hold, paralysis, sleep, slow, death, disintegration, and poison effects. But we should also include immunity to compulsions (any mind-affecting?) that specifically affect dragons.

Yes, that suits me.

Although the original wording is the rather odd "unaffected by dragon control magical items" which implies non-magic item dragon control methods work. Like, say, an Undead Dragon Slayer using Enchant Dragon on a charm person spell.

Total immunity to mind-affecting or enchantment might be good for the Supreme Dragon, yes.

Agreed.
 

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Cleon

Legend
So shall we get started on the first one: Pearl the Moon Dragon.

Colossal Dragon (Chaotic, Extraplanar) seems pretty obvious.

Double the original 24 Hit Dice to 48 to put her in the same region as 49 HD of the 3E Manual of the Plane's Tiamat? Maybe just add 24 HD to the other Mystaran Dragon Rulers when we get around to them, then the Diamond the Star Dragon will have 54 Hit Dice, which is close to the MoP's Bahamut's who has 53 HD. Oh, and it'll give 51 Hit Dice to Opal the Sun Dragon which puts her close to the WotC Sardior's 52 HD.

That seems a decent match.

As for Armour Class, Pearl has AC –8. The various BECMI/AD&D versions of Tiamat have from AC 0 (Monster Manual) to AC –15 (Polyhedron #73). The latter also has 60 Hit Dice (!).

The 3E MotP Tiamat has AC 50 (touch 2, flat-footed 50) so seems to just have natural armour +48.

It'd be simplest to just to give Moon the same +48NA but I'm tempted to give her +40 NA and +8 from some other source, like a high Dexterity, deflection, insight, or a divine rank bonus.

Checking the 3E Sardior, he has Armor Class 75 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +8 divine, +48 natural, +11 deflection); touch 27; flat-footed 69 which seems a bit overboard.

We are aiming for a version without divine ranks aren't we, to keep it par with the Manual of the Planes Bahamut and Tiamat stats?

The Aligned Dragon Rulers have an impressive 180' land speed and fly at 420', so I'd go for 60 ft., fly 300 ft. (poor) like the MotP Bahamut.

Ability scores I'm not so certain of. Similar dragons have:

Bahamut: Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35
Tiamat: Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 28
Sardior: Str 49, Dex 22, Con 37, Int 33, Wis 34, Cha 33

Hurr… Perhaps Str 48, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 31, Wis 32, Cha 31?

I think that's all we need to decide before I post a Working Draft.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Good on 1d2 round recharge and 1 minute refresh per breath. Also to ALL domains. :devil:

Since the undead dragon slayer didn't exist until 9 years after these came out first, I'd say the spirit of the original rule was to make them immune to any kind of magical control that specifically targets dragons, if that's ok with you.

No divine ranks. I like adding 24HD, so 48HD for Pearl. +40 NA and +8 AC from something else (or in that neighborhood) seems good to me. Speeds like Bahamut sound good. Your proposed abilities are good too. Let's get that working draft!
 


Cleon

Legend
Dragon Ruler, Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft

Pearl, The Moon Dragon
Colossal Dragon (Chaos, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 48d12+576 (888 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 60 ft., fly 300 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft., burrow 30 ft.
Armor Class: 50 (–8 size, +38 natural, +10 insight), touch 12, flat-footed 50
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+83
Attack: Bite +59 melee (4d8+19/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +59 melee (4d8+19/19-20) and 2 claws +59 melee (4d6+9) and 2 wings +59 melee (2d8+9) and tail slap +59 melee (4d6+28)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (30 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, charm reptiles, corrupt water, crush 4d8+28, freezing fog, frightful presence, spell-like abilities, spells, summon djinni, tail sweep 2d8+28
Special Qualities: Alternate form, blindsense 60 ft., damage reduction 15/epic or lawful, darkvision 1,600 ft., detect gems, immunities (to acid, breath weapons, charm, cold, death, disintegration, electricity, fire, hold, paralysis, sleep, slow, spells up to 6th level, and poison), keen senses, luck bonus, see invisibility, spell resistance 30, spider climb, telepathy 300 ft., water breathing
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +26, Will +37
Abilities: Str 48, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 31, Wis 31, Cha 32
Skills: Appraise +36, Balance +6, Bluff +62, Concentration +63, Diplomacy +74, Disguise +37 (+43 acting), Gather Information +62, Intimidate +68, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +35, Knowledge (history) +35, Knowledge (nature) +17, Knowledge (religion) +35, Knowledge (the planes) +35, Listen +61, Search +61, Sense Motive +61, Spellcraft +65 (+71 decipher scrolls), Spot +61, Survival +61 (+65 aboveground, +65 on other planes), Tumble +51, Use Magic Device +62 (+68 with scrolls)
Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell×3, Dire Charge, Flyby Attack, Hover, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Snatch, Spell Penetration, Superior Initiative, Wingover
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, retinue (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran amber dragons) or traveling court (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran Amber dragons, plus a great wyrm black, brass, copper, red, and white dragon)
Challenge Rating: 28
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

An awe-inspiring dragon whose form subtly shifts between the shapes of different types of dragon. Its scales are pale white like moonlight and gleam with the subtle iridescence of a pearl.

The Moon Dragon, or Pearl as she is also called, is an immortal dragon who rules over Chaotic dragons. In her full glory Pearl is larger than any great wyrm among the mortal dragons. She answers to no one except The Great Dragon who commands all dragonkind. There are two other Dragon Rulers who directly serve The Great One: Diamond the Star Dragon, who rules Lawful dragons, and Opal the Sun Dragon, who rules Neutral dragons. Pearl sometimes meets with Diamond and Opal but avoids dealing with other Dragon Rulers such as Bahamut, Ruby, or Tiamat.

The Moon Dragon Ruler rarely visits the Prime Material, she usually appears to deal with some matter affecting a large number of Chaotic dragons or at the Great Dragon's direct bidding, although some visits have seemingly been whims inspired by her Chaotic temperament. When she does appear, Pearl is normally accompanied by multiple great wyrms. Her attendants always include four Mystaran amber great wyrms and maybe another five or so Chaotic dragons (usually a black, brass, copper, red and white great wyrm). Her palace on the Plane of Limbo is staffed by many more Chaotic creatures, not all of them dragons. The Moon Dragon's courtiers and palace followers all worship Pearl with fanatical devotion.

Pearl's natural pearlescent dragon form is mutable and can change size and shape at will as described under her Alternative Form ability. Her normal Colossal size can range from 100 to 300 feet in length (including tail) and weighs 50 to 1,000 tons..

Pearl speaks many languages, including Draconic, Abyssal, Celestial, and Common, though she can converse with any intelligent creature.

Combat
As befits her chaotic nature, Pearl is highly unpredictable in combat. Her incredible mind and eons of experience mean her her tactics should always be inventive and effective even if her actions seem random. She enjoys melee combat, and her Dire Charge and Automatic Quicken Spell feats allow her to make a full attack and cast a quickened spell every round.

Alternate Form (Su): Pearl can assume any animal or humanoid form of Huge size or smaller as a standard action. She can also assume the form of any of the chaotic dragon varieties she rules over of any age category from wyrmling to great wyrm. The Moon Dragon can remain in an alternate form until she chooses to assume a new one or return to her natural form.

Her natural form can be any size between Tiny and her normal size of Colossal and can assume the shape but not the coloration of any chaotic dragon, including wingless and legless species (she can still fly magically in wingless forms). Pearl can resize and reshape her natural form as a free action once per round.

Breath Weapon (Su): Pearl has the breath weapons of a black dragon, brass dragon, copper dragon, Mystaran amber dragon, red dragon and white dragon. She uses her breath weapons as a standard action. Once she uses a breath weapon, Pearl can't breath again until 1d2 rounds later.

If the campaign includes other species of dragon with an "always chaotic" alignment (such as the mustard dragon or tourmaline dragon) Pearl may be able to use their breath weapons too.

Once Pearl uses a breath weapon, she can't use that specific breath weapon again until 10 rounds have passed. She may still use a different dragon's breath weapon that has the same effect. For example, Pearl can use her black dragon line of acid breath weapon and then use copper dragon line of acid breath 1d2 rounds later, but would have to wait 10 rounds before using her black dragon breath weapon again.

Details of the Moon Dragon's breath weapons are as follows:

DragonBreath WeaponShapeDamage/Effect
Amberjade-green gas80 ft. cone24d12 acid
plus 1d8/4d6 jade curse*
ruby-red flames80 ft. cone24d12 fire
plus 4d6/4d6 ruby curse*
Blackacid140 ft. line24d12 acid
Brassflames140 ft. line24d12 fire
sleep gas80 ft. conesleep for 1d6+12 rounds
Copperacid140 ft. line24d12 acid
slow gas80 ft. coneslowed for 1d6+12 rounds
Redflames80 ft. cone24d12 fire
Whitefrost80 ft. cone24d12 cold
Targets exposed to the Moon Dragon's breath weapons can attempt DC 46 Reflex saves to take half damage.

*If they fail their Reflex save against one of her Mystaran amber dragon breath weapons, they must also attempt a DC 46 Fortitude save or contract a supernatural curse carried by the breath weapon, as follows.

Jade Curse: Objects and creatures affected by this curse begin to rot away. The jade breath curse does not affect anything made of metal or targets with a hardness of 10 or more. Creatures vulnerable to ability damage take 1d8 Constitution damage every minute, while targets immune to ability damage take 4d6 typeless damage every minute instead. Targets with immunity to disease take half damage. Damage caused by the jade curse cannot be repaired or healed until the curse is neutralized by any effect that cures disease, such as remove disease or heal.

Ruby Curse: This curse is harmless to creatures, but objects affected by it begin to melt away. Anything affected by the curse takes 4d6 fire damage plus 4d6 typeless damage every round.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Charm Reptiles (Sp): Pearl can use this ability three times per day. It works as a mass charm spell that affects only reptilian animals. The Moon Dragon can communicate with any charmed reptiles as though casting a speak with animals spell. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.

Corrupt Water (Sp): Once per day Pearl can stagnate 10 cubic feet of water, making it become still, foul, and unable to support animal life. The ability spoils liquids containing water. Magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature’s possession must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence) or become fouled. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Its range is equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence.

Crush (Ex): When flying, Pearl can land on opponents three or more sizes smaller than herself as a standard action, using her whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under Pearl's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed on a DC 63 Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking 4d8+28 points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if Pearl chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.

Detect Gems (Sp): Pearl can use this ability three times per day. This is a divination effect similar to a detect magic spell, except that it finds only gems. The Moon Dragon can scan a 60-degree arc each round: By concentrating for 1 round it knows if there are any gems within the arc; 2 rounds of concentration reveal the exact number of gems; and 3 rounds reveal their exact location, type, and value. This ability is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Freezing Fog (Sp): Pearl can use this ability three times per day. It is similar to a solid fog spell but also causes a rime of slippery ice to form on any surface the fog touches, creating the effect of a grease spell. The Moon Dragon is immune to the grease effect because of her spider climb ability. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Pearl can unsettle foes with her mere presence. The power takes effect automatically whenever Pearl attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 360 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer than 48 Hit Dice. An affected creature can resist the effects by making a Will save (DC 44). A successful saving throw makes a creature immune to Pearl's frightful presence for one day. Creatures with 4 Hit Dice or fewer become panicked for 4d6 rounds if they fail their saving throws. Creatures with 5 or more Hit Dice become shaken for 4d6 rounds if they fail their saving throws. Dragons ignore the effects of Pearl's frightful presence. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces the Moon Dragon climbs must be icy. It is always in effect.

Immunities (Ex): Pearl is immune to acid, breath weapons, charm, cold, death, disintegration, electricity, fire, hold, paralysis, sleep, slow, and poison effects. Pearl ignores the effects of spells and spell-like abilities of 6th level or less, just as if the spellcaster had failed to overcome the Moon Dragon's spell resistance.

Keen Senses (Ex): Pearl sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. She also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

See Invisibility (Ex): Pearl has the extraordinary ability to see invisible creatures. This works like the see invisibility spell with a range of 1,600 feet. This power is always active.

Luck Bonus (Sp): Once per day Pearl can touch a gem, usually one embedded in the dragon’s hide, and enspell it to bring good luck. As long as the Moon Dragon carries the gem, Pearl and every chaotic creature in a 10-foot radius per age category of the Moon Dragon receives a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws and similar rolls, as for a stone of good luck. If Pearl gives an enspelled gem to another creature, only that bearer gets the bonus. The effect lasts 1d3+?? hours but ends if the gem is destroyed. This ability is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—astral projection, chaos hammer (DC 25), cloak of chaos (DC 29), detect law, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, locate object, plane shift (DC 28), protection from law (DC 22), speak with animals, telekinesis, word of chaos (DC 28); 4/day—suggestion (DC 24); 3/day—darkness (radius 200 ft.), endure elements (radius 200 ft.)(DC 22), fog cloud, gust of wind, insect plague, wall of ice (DC 25); 2/day—control weather, stone shape; 1/day—control winds (DC 26), discern location, disintegrate (DC 27), find the path (DC 27), foresight (DC 30), mass charm monster (DC 29), move earth, plant growth, transmute rock to mud or mud to rock (DC 26), wall of stone (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spells: Pearl is a 20th-level sorcerer and a 20th-level cleric. She can also cast cleric spells and spells from cleric domains as arcane spells. Pearl has access to all the domains available to the chaotic dragons she rules (For the black, brass, copper, Mystaran amber, red and white dragons, these are Chaos, Destruction, Earth, Evil, Fire, Knowledge, Luck and Trickery). In her natural form, Pearl can cast her spells with but a word.

Sorcerer Spells Known: (6/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7; save DC 21 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance;
1st—mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, unseen servant;
2nd—blindness/deafness, cat's grace, detect thoughts, hideous laughter, mirror image;
3rd—arcane sight, displacement, haste, major image;
4th—black tentacles, crushing despair, dimensional anchor, greater invisibility;
5th—feeblemind, mind fog, mirage arcana, wall of force;
6th—antimagic field, heal, veil;
7th—insanity, limited wish, prismatic spray;
8th—greater shadow evocation, mass charm monster, mind blank;
9th—shades, shapechange, weird.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared: (6/8+1/8+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/5+1; save DC 20 + spell level):
0—cure minor wounds [×2], detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue;
1st—cure light wounds [×2], detect good, divine favor [×2], entropic shield, inflict light wounds, obscuring mist, protection from goodᴰ;
2nd—aid, align weapon, cure moderate wounds, inflict moderate wounds, invisibilityᴰ, lesser restoration, resist energy, shatter, undetectable alignment;
3rd—bestow curse, clairaudience/clairvoyanceᴰ, cure serious wounds, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against law, nondetection, remove curse, wind wall;
4th—confusion, control water, cure critical wounds, dismissal, divination, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, restoration;
5th—break enchantment, dispel law, false visionᴰ, greater command, mass cure light wounds, mass inflict light wounds, scrying, true seeing;
6th—antilife shell, blade barrier, forbiddance, heroes' feast, mass eagle's splendor, misleadᴰ, undeath to death;
7th—destruction, greater restoration, greater scrying, spell turningᴰ, regenerate, repulsion;
8th—dimensional lock, earthquake, fire storm, greater planar ally, greater spell immunity, polymorph any objectᴰ;
9th—implosion, mass heal, miracle (×2), soul bind, time stopᴰ.
Domain spell.

Summon Djinni (Sp): This ability, usable once per day, works like a summon monster spell, except that it summons one djinni. This ability is the equivalent of a 7th-level spell.

Spider Climb (Ex): Pearl can climb on vertical surfaces and ceilings as though using the spider climb spell. This ability also renders Pearl immune to grease effects such as that left by her freezing fog spell-like ability.

Water Breathing (Ex): The Moon Dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use her breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Originally appeared in D&D Master Rules (1985).
 
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Cleon

Legend
I wasn't 100% sure of the wording for the "wait 1 minute before reusing a breath weapon" bit so the Working Draft includes an alternative version.

I included a rough draft of an Alternate Form ability and added "greater spell invulnerability" for the immunity to 0-6th level spells, but notice the 3E Manual of the Planes has something similar in his immunities:

Immunities (Ex): Bahamut is immune to acid, cold, electricity, fire poison, sleep, and paralysis effects. Bahamut ignores the effects of spells and spell-like abilities of 5th level or less, just as if the spellcaster had failed to overcome Bahamut’s spell resistance.

Perhaps use that wording instead, except "6th level or less"?

While whipping up the stats, I also remembered a few things worth adding.

Shouldn't this dragon have a Swim Speed and water breathing (of the "can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged" variety?

Bahamut, Gold and White Dragons have Swim 60 ft. with their water breathing, so that'll probably do.

We could also give her a Burrow speed of 30 ft. like the Brass Dragon and White Dragon.

Are we giving her see invisibility like the MotP Bahamut?

See Invisibility (Ex): Bahamut has the extraordinary ability to see invisible creatures. This works like the see invisibility spell with a range of 1,600 feet. This power is always active.

Bahamut also has 1,600 ft. darkvision (!) so I guess the Dragon Rulers should too.

The original text for the Dragon Rulers says "Each ruler has a spell book containing all of the known spells, but must study and learn them just as a normal magic-user. Clerical spells are gained with the usual amount of meditation". Should we change their sorcerer spell casting to wizard?
 

Cleon

Legend
Armor Class: 50 (–8 size, +40 natural, +8 ??), touch 10, flat-footed 50

Any preferences for the type of the +8 armour bonus? I was leaning towards deflection.

Special Qualities: *SNIP*, damage reduction ??/??

Bahamut has 15/epic and evil so I think 15/epic and lawful would be appropriate.

Abilities: Str 48, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 31, Wis 32, Cha 31

Upon reflection, it feels a bit off having Wisdom be Pearl's highest mental stat. Chaotic creatures are not known for their Wisdom.

How about swapping her Wisdom and Charisma to make it Str 48, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 31, Wis 31, Cha 32?
 

Cleon

Legend
Bahamut has 15/epic and evil so I think 15/epic and lawful would be appropriate.

Upon reexamining the MotP update, it says Bahamut's DR is "15/epic evil" so it could be "epic or evil" or "epic and evil".

I'm now leaning towards "DR 15/epic or lawful" for Pearl, with "DR 15/epic or chaotic" for Diamond, "DR 15/epic or chaotic or lawful" for Opal and "DR 20/epic" for The Star Dragon.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Answering in no particular order: :p

I think version 1 is good for the breath weapon "reset" times.

I can go for "epic or alignment" for the DR on these, as you suggest.

How about any creature of Large size or smaller for Alternate Form?

Bahamut-style immunities will work.

Swim and burrow speeds are good, too. Plus the long-range darkvision and see invisibility. That all seems reasonable.

Didn't dragons back then generally cast as wizards, though? Assuming that's the case, I'd rather update these to 3.X and give them sorceror casting.

I can go for the revised abilities.

The +8 armor as deflection is ok, but a deflection bonus is often tied to Cha. What about reducing NA to +37 and making it a +11 deflection bonus of some kind?
 

Cleon

Legend
Answering in no particular order: :p

I think version 1 is good for the breath weapon "reset" times.

I can go for "epic or alignment" for the DR on these, as you suggest.

How about any creature of Large size or smaller for Alternate Form?

Bahamut-style immunities will work.

Swim and burrow speeds are good, too. Plus the long-range darkvision and see invisibility. That all seems reasonable.

That's all fine by me.

I'll add the above revisions with the next update.

Didn't dragons back then generally cast as wizards, though? Assuming that's the case, I'd rather update these to 3.X and give them sorceror casting.

Actually no, early edition dragons did not use spell books.

AD&D Dragons had the following:

Monstrous Manual (1993) said:
Dragons learn spells haphazardly over the years. The DM should randomly determine which spells any particular dragon knows. The dragon can cast each spell once per day, unless random determination indicates the same spell more than once, in which case the dragon can cast it more than once a day. Dragons to not use spell books or pray to deities; they simply sleep, concentrate when they awaken, and remember their spells. Dragon spells have only a verbal component; the spells have a casting time of 1, regardless of level.

While BECMI Dragons had:

Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia (1991) said:
Talking dragons are also able to use magical (but not clerical) spells. The number of spells and their levels are given in the table. Dragon spells are usually selected randomly. Wherever applicable, treat the Hit Dice of the dragon as the level of caster for spell-like effects (for purposes of duration, dispelling, etc.).

There were exceptions - there are always exceptions in D&D! - but most pre-3E dragons did not use spell books.

Bahamut is one of the aforementioned exceptions. The 1E Monster Manual says he "possesses books listing all known magic spells of these levels". Since his 3E version uses sorcerer casting it would be consistent to do the same for the Mystaran Dragon Rulers, it just doesn't seem very "divine-level dragon-ey".

How about we give it sorcerer casting but add a note that each aspect it manifests can have different "Sorcerer Known" spells based on the situation the Dragon Ruler expects to deal with?

I can go for the revised abilities.

Good!

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

The +8 armor as deflection is ok, but a deflection bonus is often tied to Cha. What about reducing NA to +37 and making it a +11 deflection bonus of some kind?

How about switching the tied ability to Wisdom (or Intelligence) and make it an insight bonus? That'd require +38 natural and +10 insight for the same total armour modifier.
 
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