Character Ascension, Morality, and Divinity (Was -- What makes someone Divine?)

EDIT: This discussion is changing slowly into a widening discussion of mechanics on ascension and the morality of this process (and how some go about it). Read on down through the discussion so far!



Now -- take this situation into account before answering the question:


The world in question does not have gods, and as far as can be ascertained, there have never been gods save the two that created the world. These gods destroyed one another at the creation of the world, and their mingled essences (as they were opposites) are what created life as it mingled with the world itself. One of the gods was a god of creation, and the other a god of destruction.

There was also a catasphoric event in the history of this world that brought into existence for a moment the essence of the original god of destruction, and that moment damaged the magical fabric of this world. This may have also damaged the fabric which supports divine beings.


In general -- What could make one divine? Is it worshippers? Is it a divine spark? Given even circumstances, what do most people think a mortal would need to ascend?

Given the situation above -- how might one repair the damage to the fabric of the world? Would you require something extra from people in this world who wanted to somehow become divine above what would be required of people in a normal setting?

Re: What makes someone Divine?

Mordane76 said:

In general -- What could make one divine? Is it worshippers? Is it a divine spark? Given even circumstances, what do most people think a mortal would need to ascend?

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Well, I would say there is no 'divine' in that world; that the Gods are dead (ala Athas/Dark Sun). Alternatively, the ability to grant others the ability channel 'divine' energy (or positive/negative energy, or ethereal or...) might be a good definition so that clerics could exist. That is a more practical than theological definition.

Mordane76 said:

Given the situation above -- how might one repair the damage to the fabric of the world? Would you require something extra from people in this world who wanted to somehow become divine above what would be required of people in a normal setting?

Click to expand...

Well, I would wait for the Dragon to Be Re-born so that he, his lucky friend, and the guy who talks to Wolfs could save the world... Speaking of, back to Crossroads of Twilight.

Is that really the back story behind Wheel of Time?

If I did, I'm sorry -- I've never read Robert Jordan's work.


Does anyone have any working ideas or campaigns at a level where ascension is a viable option? What have DMs thought about for potentially allowing their characters to ascend?

Even in games other than D&D -- as anyone thought of allowing characters to become divine beings? What stipulations have people put on this process?

Well the cosmology and game in Exalted is predicated on the idea that gods need men turned divine to establish an effective power base. The means of doing so seems to consist of transeferring a divine element onto peoples souls. The mean of doing that vary from reincarnation of sorts to magical bloodlines to special surgery.

In general DnD I would say that methods of becoming divine should vary even within game worlds. Most pantheons in the real world include gods who came to be in a variety of ways. The Greek pantheon is the least diverse as most godhood flows from Zeus's bloodline but you still have Aphrodite arising from the waves.

Mystara from DnD had a lot of mortals turned gods. Forgotten Realms has a few. Mystara probably has more of what your looking for, though I myself do not understand completely.

Re: What makes someone Divine?

A red fish-tail evening gown and lots of eye make-up.

If someone gets enough people to say a prayer to them every night, that person could be in some way bolstered by their words and ascend, depending on the number of worshipers

Re: What makes someone Divine?

Mordane76 said:

In general -- What could make one divine? Is it worshippers? Is it a divine spark? Given even circumstances, what do most people think a mortal would need to ascend?

Click to expand...

Hmmm....it all depends on your world. In my world, at least, so far as it has been created, the only way to become a god is to be born one. Which obviously doesn't work in your campaign world. Certain very very powerful mages might be able to "break the wall" between divinity and mortality and ascend to godhood. Having worshippers always helps. My gods draw power from worship of mortals. You could make it so that if enough people worshipped a person, he could ascend. Enough, meaning more than a large country. You don't want every tyrannical Emporer gaining the undying worship of his people and becoming a god. Maybe you could make ranks of gods...people like that could be demi-gods or the like. Not that a tyrannical god would be necessarily bad, but you don't want to many.

Using your campaign model, i would have Artefacts scattered across the globe that contain bits of the divine essence from the two old gods. Your catastrophic event could have been when one of the destroyers artifacts was unleashed. To become divine someone must bring together three of the creators artefacts.... Or something like that.

I think the idea of the artifacts by Severion is a really good idea based on the story presented and the idea of the need for worshipers is a common one to use as well.

Another way that it could be approached is for someone to so fit a certain quality or mindset as to ascend. If someone acts in such a way that they are truly attuned to a certain aspect of being. e.g. A person that lives for war and has a soul for war and brings war wherever he goes might come to actually be the embodiment of war and thus ascend to godhood. It might be a very good idea to add extra requirements (such as the need for artifacts)

It might not be advisable to assign the process for 'ascending' gods to particularly powerful wizards etc. as it means that there ia a bias built into the system toward certain classes and levels of society.

I'm glad to see I received a few thoughtful answers.

In the campaign world I'm working with the catasphoric event, simply called the Fire, was brought about by bringing together 6 grapefruit-sized orbs called the Summoning Kajh of Destruction. This brought into existence, for the briefest of moments, the essence of the original god of destruction, and that moment damaged the magical fabric of this world. It greatly weakened clerics, and made it impossible for the plane to support a truly divine being.


So the idea of artifacts is good. I also like the idea of mindset and worshippers. Now, to take this topic deeper --


How might a group go about repairing this damage, so that gods could once again ascend?

I have a player interested in working his character up to the point where he can ascend to godhood. In the campaign world, religion exists, even though the gods do not -- people worship "gods," but these gods aren't really there. Even the clerics of the religions do not realize this truth, but the characters will slowly discover this truth. The players know what's going on...

So far, the character of the player in question has played as though he doesn't know the truth, and as though he has no intention or desire to become a god. If the character continues this mindset until he completely understands the truth, I don't think I'll have any problem allowing the player to retire his character as a god at a later date, if/one the characters repair the damage and restore the possibility of divinity.

His people are called Ophids -- they're a snake-like humanoid race. They worship a god called the Serpent, a Lawful Neutral deity thought to rule over all ophidian life-forms, and to represent the laws of nature. He also has limited dominion over the underground. The Ophids are very contemplative beings, slow to action, but decisive and swift when they reach a decision (favored class monk).

What would be good items this character might need to discover/create to become this god?