D&D 5E Two Weapon Fighting

Yunru · Mar 25, 2016

Personally I house rule Two Weapon Fighting Style to allow Extra attack to apply to the bonus attack in place of the +ability mod.
Comparing GWF to TWF:
1 attack: 2d6+Mod vs 2d6+Mod: +1.3333333... to GWF
2 attacks: 4d6+2*Mod vs 4d6+Mod: +Mod+2.666666... to GWF
3 attacks: 6d6+3*Mod vs 6d6+Mod: +4+2*Mod to GWF

As you can see, GWF still wins.
But compare New to Old:
No Extra Attack: 2d6+Mod vs. 2d6+2*Mod: Old wins by a whole Modifier. But this is unlikely unless your a Rogue, in which case it's insignificant vs getting an extra shot at Sneak Attack anyway.
Extra Attack (1): 4d6+2*Mod vs. 3d6+3*Mod: 14 vs 10.5+Mod: Old wins if your mod is >3.5 and you have no on-hit.
Extra Attack (2): 6d6+3*Mod vs. 4d6+4*Mod: 21 vs 14+Mod: Old wins only if your mod is >7. Good luck.
Extra Attack (3): 8d6+4*Mod vs. 5d6+5*Mod: 28 vs 17.5+Mod: Old if your mod is >10.5

Also look at it thematically: You go Two-Weapon Fighting because you want to be a blur of blades. The new way is. The old way... isn't.

The Grassy Gnoll · Mar 26, 2016

I was originally posting about Two Weapon Fighting which is open to all, rather than the Fighter-specific TWF fighting Style, but, that said...

What your house rule does is to break the basic structure of the combat round, which allows only one Bonus Action (ie Offhand Attack) per round.

Essentially for those with a Extra Attacks you are granting them the ability to significantly increase their attacks:
No Extra Attacks = 2 total attacks inc Offhand (as normal)
1 Extra Attack = 4 total attacks inc 2 Offhands (where 3 total is normal = 33% more)
2 Extra Attacks = 6 total attacks inc 3 Offhands (where 4 total is normal = 50% more)
3 Extra Attacks = 8 total attacks inc 4 Offhands (where 5 total is normal = 60% more)

Essentially you're granting up to 4 Bonus Actions per round. That seems pretty broken to me.

Do you allow a similar action economy for other classes/abilities/types of attacks eg spell attacks?

Yunru · Mar 26, 2016

Uh no, I'm not. You still only have the one bonus action. You just make up to four attacks (feature dependent) instead of one.
That's like saying "Extra Attack breaks the basic structure of the combat round, which only allows one action per round." - It's simply not true.

As for increasing the number of attacks: Yes it does more damage, but it still does less damage than a regular old 2-hander. Unless you use an on-hit bonuses, which normally take a bonus action to set up, which is a lot higher cost now.

Kithas · Mar 26, 2016

Yunru said:
Uh no, I'm not. You still only have the one bonus action. You just make up to four attacks (feature dependent) instead of one.
That's like saying "Extra Attack breaks the basic structure of the combat round, which only allows one action per round." - It's simply not true.

As for increasing the number of attacks: Yes it does more damage, but it still does less damage than a regular old 2-hander. Unless you use an on-hit bonuses, which normally take a bonus action to set up, which is a lot higher cost now.

I like your idea. Personally id limit it to extra attack and not the extra attack(2) or(3). Hex and hunters mark arent the only on hits, divine favor, improved divine smite, elemental weapon all only take one bonus action far tho whole encounter and are generally better than tex/wark for that reason.

WanderingMystic · Mar 26, 2016

My group has changed the DW feat to grant +1 ac and allows you to make 2 attacks with your off hand weapon when you use your bonus action. This way a 5th level human with dw & twf is doing 7.5 x4 = 30 damage vs gwm 13 x 3 = 39 damage vs pm 11.5 x 2 + 7.5 = 30.5 damage

The Grassy Gnoll · Mar 26, 2016

Yunru said:
Uh no, I'm not. You still only have the one bonus action. You just make up to four attacks (feature dependent) instead of one.
That's like saying "Extra Attack breaks the basic structure of the combat round, which only allows one action per round." - It's simply not true

Couple of things:

1. Extra Attack doesn't break anything, you can take one Action. If you take the Attack Action, you may make as many individual Attacks within that Action as your class/race/feats allow. Most classes can use the Attack Action to make one Attack; certain classes (eg Fighter) are so skilled they can make multiple Attacks within the time taken to perform the Attack Action.

2. I may be mistaken in my analysis of your maths (it's not immediately clear and broken down for a bear of little brain such as myself). Please do explain how you get to roll a total of 8d6 for taking "up to four attacks" plus one Bonus Action (offhand) Attack - surely that is a total of 5d6 only?

The Extra Attack class feature states that "you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack Action on your turn."

A Bonus Action is not a full Action. You don't get the full number of Attacks you could take using the Attack Action when you use a Bonus Action. a Bonus Action only allows one additional Attack.

From Sage Advice:

Yunru · Mar 26, 2016

The Grassy Gnoll said:
2. I may be mistaken in my analysis of your maths (it's not immediately clear and broken down for a bear of little brain such as myself). Please do explain how you get to roll a total of 8d6 for taking "up to four attacks" plus one Bonus Action (offhand) Attack - surely that is a total of 5d6 only?

The Extra Attack class feature states that "you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack Action on your turn."

A Bonus Action is not a full Action. You don't get the full number of Attacks you could take using the Attack Action when you use a Bonus Action. a Bonus Action only allows one additional Attack.

That's easy: you don't. You roll 4d6 from your four attacks with your action, and 4d6 from your four attacks with your one bonus action.

Yunru said:
Personally I house rule Two Weapon Fighting Style to allow Extra attack to apply to the bonus attack

L2R

The Grassy Gnoll · Mar 26, 2016

See the Sage Advice quote from Mike Mearls in my last post, that explains quite explicitly that you only get ONE attack from a Bonus Action, any multiple attacks are only taken on your Action.

Sorry, your house rule is massively overpowered and does break the combat round.

The Grassy Gnoll · Mar 26, 2016

Yunru said:
L2R

Really? "learn to read"?

Don't be so rude. There is no need for that.

Yunru · Mar 26, 2016

The Grassy Gnoll said:
See the Sage Advice quote from Mike Mearls in my last post, that explains quite explicitly that you only get ONE attack from a Bonus Action, any multiple attacks are only taken on your Action.

Sorry, your house rule is massively overpowered and does break the combat round.

And when you actually provide maths to back that up, I might start to listen. Unfortunately you haven't.

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Really? "learn to read"?

Don't be so rude. There is no need for that.

Yes "learn to read", I suggest you start with the definition of "house rule" since you appear to believe that nothing is above the devs and that Extra Attack can't apply to bonus actions because it doesn't in vanilla.

As for being rude, I'm not the one slinging around baseless accusations, or patronizingly linking dev tweets (which, again, are completely irrelevant because, hello, houserule).

D&D 5E Two Weapon Fighting

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