Power " Invitation to Defeat " unclear

Garthanos said:

The orignal post seemed to be just INSISTING the secondary "effect" MUST have a save.

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I think, as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] pointed out, that he was just a little confused about there being 2 effects. If you are used to reading the sort of muddy subjective descriptions of spell effects in games like AD&D, 3.x, and 5e, then you what you do is you sort of squint and try to get the 'gist' of what is being said and then figure out the questions in play somehow. AD&D is a game which is particularly like this, nothing in it actually just makes sense when you try to play it out at the table. You always have to step back and invent the actual mechanics from the ambiguous words. So when you come to 4e and you read a power, and you're used to playing some other D&D, you just automatically try to mentally construct some something in your head that 'sort of matches' with the gist of the words. But with 4e you don't need to do that. Instead if you literally read the words rote and don't add even the smallest bit of interpretation to them beyond "OK, this is what happens when X" then it is all just clear. You play it and the game 'just works'. That's the case with this particular power, it isn't actually unclear, the OP was simply reading too much into it. He just needs to literally interpret the power exactly as the power block interpretation rules in PHB1 state. I think he was about 95% of the way there actually. He just needed some confirmation that he was on the right track.

Inspired by the the Ardent power - Invitation to Defeat a mass Taunt with a disarm maneuver...

Garthanos said:

Inspired by the the Ardent power - Invitation to Defeat a mass Taunt with a disarm maneuver...

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Y'know, Exorcism of Steel is meant as a disarm maneuver, and is much higher level... of course it's a defender power.

Tony Vargas said:

Y'know, Exorcism of Steel is meant as a disarm maneuver, and is much higher level... of course it's a defender power.

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There are big conversations about disarming effects in genre.

That power is ummmm a yeh. In game terms I think EoS is poorly formulated leaving too much ambiguity ie exactly what does removing a Goblins sword do to him per raw? does he have a back up blade almost as good? What if the enemy isnt using a weapon? Its basically a til end of encounter single target once per encounter effect which does what exactly?

Disarmed in action movies is more accurately portrayed by the momentary effects of 4e powers for which a number of powers/effects might do... Unless you have a minion or otherwise nearly defeated (bloodied enemy) it is never likely to be the absolute and permanent effect of the EoS stolen weapon.

We could use some skill/utility power to tie into that so that one could snag that intimidate effect (where you end the fight foot on blade knife at throat enemy cowed) using Athletics or Thievery (or a martial cantrip -- specifically affecting only that use of intimidate)

In REALITY if someone can do that EoS to you they have you so totally out classed you might as well be zero hit points and defeated we allow for some other effects in game in order to support tropes not realism.

For this reason presenting many disarms with momentary effects is useful and appropriate even if you are using the intimidate/zero hit point option.

Other possible momentary effects you see in the movies for a significant enemy being disarmed, they are forced to dive after/or kneel to retrieve their weapon.

Perhaps use a dazed effect so the enemy is bobbling their weapon and loses most of their actions trying to get it under control.

OK call that a thread divergence

Garthanos said:

Disarmed in action movies is more accurately portrayed by the momentary effects of 4e powers for which a number of powers/effects might do... Unless you have a minion or otherwise nearly defeated (bloodied enemy) it is never likely to be the absolute and permanent effect of the EoS stolen weapon.
We could use some skill/utility power to tie into that so that one could snag that intimidate effect (where you end the fight foot on blade knife at throat enemy cowed) using Athletics or Thievery (or a martial cantrip -- specifically affecting only that use of intimidate)

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That sounds like a good thing to leverage. I guess Thievery for the DEX-based martial or Athletics for the STR types could be subbed for Intimidate - presumably a skill keying off your primary is going to be higher than Intimidate.

That'd be consistent with some Utility powers, actually, swapping your best skill in for another has several precedents. Or it could be appended to an attack power: resolve attack, if the enemy is bloodied after the attack (or was before), make the Intimidate (or sub Athletics or Thievery depending on which class has the power), to force it to surrender.

Other possible momentary effects you see in the movies for a significant enemy being disarmed, they are forced to dive after/or kneel to retrieve their weapon.
Perhaps use a dazed effect so the enemy is bobbling their weapon and loses most of their actions trying to get it under control.

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Or weakened (se), aftereffect: prone?

Tony Vargas said:

That'd be consistent with some Utility powers, actually, swapping your best skill in for another has several precedents.

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I am starting a new thread for this dude there is a lot going on.

A taunt which just caused your enemy to not be able to take an opportunity attack against your ally might be very useful. It would be a good distraction effect. To help enable escape... if it worked on multiple opponents similar to how an intimidation can.

Garthanos said:

A taunt which just caused your enemy to not be able to take an opportunity attack against your ally might be very useful. It would be a good distraction effect. To help enable escape... if it worked on multiple opponents similar to how an intimidation can.

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Wizard's AW Winged Horde immediately jumps to mind as a model for balance purposes.

darkbard said:

Wizard's AW Winged Horde immediately jumps to mind as a model for balance purposes.

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I of course meant the question for the Attercop Attercop thread but thanks!