D&D 5E Running High Level 5E is more fun than I thought it would be.

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The bonus to saves and AC is important in high CR monsters, mostly for solo monsters, if you have access to resources that increase to hit chances (magic items , spells). If you have a fighter with a +3 sword and the MM assumes no magic items, you need to compensate for that, not to mention bless.
That is a good point, and he might be doing that as well for all I know. 🤷‍♂️

It sort of gets back into the treadmill effect though... the DM gives a +3 weapon, and so for (at least) the important monster, he bumps the AC 3. Net = no effect.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

dave2008

Legend
That is a good point, and he might be doing that as well for all I know. 🤷‍♂️

It sort of gets back into the treadmill effect though... the DM gives a +3 weapon, and so for (at least) the important monster, he bumps the AC 3. Net = no effect.
That's why you also have bless ;) Of course you still get the +3 damage, so not "no effect"

That being said, any buff is best used judiciously. There are also other ways to handle that. Someone posted in this thread that they said the Demon Lords in their OotA campaign had resistance to B/P/S damage (& immunity to nonmagical damage), unless you had a +3 weapon. Same to hit chance, but changes the damage mechanic based on the weapon.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
That's why you also have bless ;) Of course you still get the +3 damage, so not "no effect"

That being said, any buff is best used judiciously. There are also other ways to handle that. Someone posted in this thread that they said the Demon Lords in their OotA campaign had resistance to B/P/S damage (& immunity to nonmagical damage), unless you had a +3 weapon. Same to hit chance, but changes the damage mechanic based on the weapon.
Well, the damage is also there, but I thought earlier you also mentioned bumping HP as well? Maybe that was someone else...
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
High level PCs are exceedingly good at preparation. They can scry and talk directly to their gods. If The Arch-Lich of Deadville is turning all the land to blight, they aren't going to enter room 1 of his dungeon and go room by room for 3 sessions. They are going to research and plan and bampf into his crypt and gank him. I have seen again and again once the PCs hit that power level.

So I don't need folks to tell meit doesn't happen. Icould use some thoughts on how to deal with it or even embrace it.
I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just wondering how that works within the context of 5E. 5E is far less amenable to heavy prep tactics than previous editions, in my experience. There just aren't as many tools to convert downtime into power.

In my own Ravnica game, I'm using the following tricks to make things tough for the PCs:

1) Campaign rules. There's a broad limitation on teleportation in the setting, such that any teleportation effect that travels more than about a mile is subject to extremely high mishap chances. Access to an NPC that can bypass that limitation has been a major plot point.
Also, magic that creates extraplanar spaces is relatively easy and cheap to acquire. Most high-level characters have access to a permanent usable extraplanar space, which makes intrusion much more difficult.

2) Constant pressure. The PCs have had a total of three long rests over the last 10 sessions or so. There's been a ticking clock to stop an enemy invasion, and the party's enemies are both aware of the party's actions and have the resources to counter them. Blowing up the inn that the party had made somewhat of a base while the party was resting was a particular high point for me.

3) Asymmetric resources. High level spells and custom magic both cost money and time. The PC's enemies have lots of both, the party does not. The party is building up allies quickly to narrow the gap, but there's still a vast discrepancy.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I don't disagree that the BBEG is going to have defenses and such, I am just saying that in my experience a half dozen players with a broad array of high level PC abilities are generally pretty good at finding solutions when it's just me sitting on the other side of the screen. I generally do not like fiat countering as a GM (i.e. just inventing things to stymie the PCs at every turn). Rather, I'll decide villain X has defenses Y in place, and then leave it up to the PCs about how to deal with those things. Sometimes they draw the villain out. Sometimes they summon an army of umber hulks to dig a tunnel into the basement. In any case, it is more common for characters of that power level to choose the time and place of battle, in my experience, which has the effect of allowing them to nova. That in turn means I feel like I need to make sure BBEG's are extra powerful to make them an interesting challenge, but that can lead to "unfair" feeling situations if things go against the PCs.

So I guess what I am asking is in high level games, what are some tools for making sure the PCs have had a few resource draining encounters prior to those set piece showdowns? I like letting them feel smart and strong, and I like challenging set piece battles, and I don't especially like grindy fights meant to chip away at their hit points and spell slots, and all those things feel kind of opposed.
There's not really anything wrong with them doing that sort of thing from time to time (trivializing the showdown). They probably enjoy it.

I think your approach of establishing the enemy's capabilities without retconning is good.

That said, are you sure some of this experience isn't coming from 3.x? I'm not aware of anything in 5e that allows you to summon an army of umber hulks. High level 3.x is its own thing and doesn't necessarily translate to 5e.

As for challenging them, keep in mind that you can play pretty fast and loose with tier 4 in 5e. PCs can typically handle challenges that seem unfair on paper.

For example, if the PCs lure the enemy out of their lair, then have the BBEG bring all of those set piece encounters with him. Even if they can't win, they can probably teleport away or escape by other means, and now they've learned that just because they try to dictate the terms doesn't mean the BBEG will necessarily respect those terms. Just like if they try scry-teleport-kill and find themselves in the middle of a death trap.

Sometimes the right clever approach should trivialize the encounter. But if the enemy is more clever, it might make it harder. That's the risk you take. If they approach the game as CaW then they should expect to be engaged the same in turn. If they don't want a fair fight then they shouldn't expect one.

As for bringing the set piece to them, just have it be the function of some evil artifact or the gift of a dark deity. At that tier you can pretty much get away with whatever explanation you want. When the PCs try to engage, the magic brings them to your set piece battle. Or the bad guys used mirage arcane to make the set piece battleground look like something harmless. Or whatever.

Just like the PCs have less limitations on them at that level, so does the DM. Obviously, you don't want to abuse that but you shouldn't hesitate to use it.
 

Reynard

Legend
I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just wondering how that works within the context of 5E.
Sorry if I came off as snippy. The isolation is getting to me, man!

5E is far less amenable to heavy prep tactics than previous editions, in my experience. There just aren't as many tools to convert downtime into power.

To be fair I am going of previous experience with high level characters. This is the first time I have run 5E up in higher Tier 3, cusp of Tier 4 so I am trying to get ahead of it. Maybe I am overthinking it?

In my own Ravnica game, I'm using the following tricks to make things tough for the PCs:

1) Campaign rules. There's a broad limitation on teleportation in the setting, such that any teleportation effect that travels more than about a mile is subject to extremely high mishap chances. Access to an NPC that can bypass that limitation has been a major plot point.
Also, magic that creates extraplanar spaces is relatively easy and cheap to acquire. Most high-level characters have access to a permanent usable extraplanar space, which makes intrusion much more difficult.

2) Constant pressure. The PCs have had a total of three long rests over the last 10 sessions or so. There's been a ticking clock to stop an enemy invasion, and the party's enemies are both aware of the party's actions and have the resources to counter them. Blowing up the inn that the party had made somewhat of a base while the party was resting was a particular high point for me.

3) Asymmetric resources. High level spells and custom magic both cost money and time. The PC's enemies have lots of both, the party does not. The party is building up allies quickly to narrow the gap, but there's still a vast discrepancy.

That sounds like an interesting game, but I kind of want to try and keep the "sandbox" feel even at that level, where the PCs get to decide where they go and with whom they interact, rather than be under constant plot pressure.
 

Reynard

Legend
There's not really anything wrong with them doing that sort of thing from time to time (trivializing the showdown). They probably enjoy it.

I think your approach of establishing the enemy's capabilities without retconning is good.

That said, are you sure some of this experience isn't coming from 3.x? I'm not aware of anything in 5e that allows you to summon an army of umber hulks. High level 3.x is its own thing and doesn't necessarily translate to 5e.
It's probably a lot this, to be honest.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Sorry if I came off as snippy. The isolation is getting to me, man!
No worries, I've had too many "quarantine" moments to count.

To be fair I am going of previous experience with high level characters. This is the first time I have run 5E up in higher Tier 3, cusp of Tier 4 so I am trying to get ahead of it. Maybe I am overthinking it?
I think this is a big one. Tier 4, admittedly, has some real shenanigans. But the hard limit on high level slots means that the PCs still need some real time to pull them off. Coming from 3.X makes it easy to miss just how nerfed 5e casters at high levels. The difference between a 10th level caster and a 17th level caster is literally 4 spells a day. They're good spells, but none of them are anything like an auto-win against a high CR enemy.

That sounds like an interesting game, but I kind of want to try and keep the "sandbox" feel even at that level, where the PCs get to decide where they go and with whom they interact, rather than be under constant plot pressure.
That makes sense. But I would also argue that any high level power that isn't utterly inhuman has some sort of infrastructure around them. If the PCs start making inroads into their territory, they're going to know about it.
 

dave2008

Legend
Well, the damage is also there, but I thought earlier you also mentioned bumping HP as well? Maybe that was someone else...
Sure I did, but it is a tool box of options. What you need depends on what the monsters are up against and what you want the monsters to be. I suggest the AC in general, other modifications on an add needed basis. Though really they are all on an add needed basis.
 

S'mon

Legend
High level PCs are exceedingly good at preparation. They can scry and talk directly to their gods. If The Arch-Lich of Deadville is turning all the land to blight, they aren't going to enter room 1 of his dungeon and go room by room for 3 sessions. They are going to research and plan and bampf into his crypt and gank him. I have seen again and again once the PCs hit that power level.

Strange, I've been running level 20 5e for a few years now and never seen this.
 

Remove ads

Top