D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

Maxperson · Jun 28, 2020

Chaosmancer said:
It says half-orcs who are weaker end up dead, but that human blood often gives them cunning (more intelligence) and self-discipline (implying orcs are unable to control themselves) to go far.

It doesn't say the human blood is what gives them the cunning. It says that the human blood gives the the right mix of cunning, ambition and self-control. Orcs are cunning and the most cunning orcs become the war chiefs(from the MM). I think the cunning comes from the orc side, as I have often seen cunning used to describe creatures that aren't necessarily smart, but can still be tricky. Animals are often described as cunning. Had it said intelligence, knowing that orcs have a penalty, I would probably agree with you.

Valchrys · Jun 28, 2020

Chaosmancer said:
As for color-coded dragons it is both problematic and stupid. Dragons are actually the other classic example, where people discover a clutch of dragon eggs and the debate comes on. They are Blue Dragons, can you raise them to be good, or will they always turn out evil. Is it safer to kill them as babies now so they don't kill later, ect ect ect.

Also, if a dragon lands outside of town, I don't want the color of it's scales to tell people whether or not it is an ally.

So, instead, I made them practically elementals. You don't see a Red Dragon or a Gold Dragon, you see a dragon of boiling rock and writhing flames, stone-like scales wrapped around a white-hot core. Prevents a whole lot of issues.

Dragons have an interesting model that could be useful in creating another angle in understanding the problem with orcs. On reading this post, I wondered why dragons can't change their color. The answer, ofc, is that D&D is founded on nature over nurture and this notion is cemented in the various racial gods. But dragons have two counterweight gods, Tiamat and Bahamut. Why couldn't the dragon's color not correspond to their chosen god? This keeps the lore intact while letting dragons have a choice. But dragons aren't the problem, I know.

This same idea works for Drow. An elf chooses to be a high (or whatever) elf or chooses to be a Drow because they have counter weight gods, Lolth and Corellon. It doesn't fix the black skin but it keeps the lore intact, I think. This also fits with what makes an elf an elf which is that they can choose to be whatever they want, whenever they want.

Orcs don't have counter weight gods in the default setting. Luthic doesn't counter Gruumsh. She would need to a be a stronger voice but she could be a starting point to giving orcs meaningful choices. Other people have talked about changing gods and I'm not saying anything new. But I thought looking at the problem from the angle of dragons might be helpful.

Chaosmancer · Jun 28, 2020

Valchrys said:
Dragons have an interesting model that could be useful in creating another angle in understanding the problem with orcs. On reading this post, I wondered why dragons can't change their color. The answer, ofc, is that D&D is founded on nature over nurture and this notion is cemented in the various racial gods. But dragons have two counterweight gods, Tiamat and Bahamut. Why couldn't the dragon's color not correspond to their chosen god? This keeps the lore intact while letting dragons have a choice. But dragons aren't the problem, I know.

This same idea works for Drow. An elf chooses to be a high (or whatever) elf or chooses to be a Drow because they have counter weight gods, Lolth and Corellon. It doesn't fix the black skin but it keeps the lore intact, I think. This also fits with what makes an elf an elf which is that they can choose to be whatever they want, whenever they want.

Orcs don't have counter weight gods in the default setting. Luthic doesn't counter Gruumsh. She would need to a be a stronger voice but she could be a starting point to giving orcs meaningful choices. Other people have talked about changing gods and I'm not saying anything new. But I thought looking at the problem from the angle of dragons might be helpful.

Hmm, that is an interesting route to take. I'd want there to be a more solid link between Green Dragons and something else, but that is a fun idea to have dragons essentially have two colors, depending on their alignment.

When I first started messing with the Drow, I did a bit where the Goddess that used to be Lolth intercepted a massive blast of energy from a portal to the Far Realms. She was twisted and went mad, and the elves in that city were literally "coated" in her shadow. There society was a bit Addams family and I found it fun.

Now I'm more leaning on having all elves be broken into sects, focusing on different styles of magic. Still in a very conceptual phase though.

And, Luthic is actually a great way to counter-blanaced Gruumsh. In Volo's when they talk about the war between Gruumsh and Magbuliyet they mention that it is very possible that the war will be decided by Luthic getting involved, because Mag's has never faced a foe as determined and fearsome as the Cave Mother. She is devoted to Gruumsh though, but if there is a schism, she would be a great balancing force.

Imaculata · Jun 28, 2020

I'm kind of in favor of a dragon being able to have any alignment, regardless of its color. In my homebrew setting, dragons aren't born evil at all. But as they grow older, they accumilate more injuries and may grow spiteful and dangerous. They are basically creatures wracked by constant pain, and yet they don't die, so they become cranky to a lethal degree. I've always liked this take on dragon alignment more than the rules as written.

5atbu · Jun 28, 2020

S'mon said:
Sorry, had to do it...

Bravo!

5atbu · Jun 28, 2020

Lanefan said:
Last I checked, cows and pigs are fleshy and we eat them all the time.

I see cannibalism in the more narrow definition: the act of eating one's own species. Thus, a Dwarf eating an Elf would not be cannibalism (Elf might in fact be standard fare for a Thursday!) but a Dwarf eating a Dwarf would be.

If it's expanded to include the eating of any "kindred" creature, the implication is that those creatures are much more similar than different; and while that does seem to be the general push of late I'm not particularly on board with it.

I think a multi sapients society would have probably decided if eating a sapient species was taboo. I also bet they would have many many different views on it.

Mercule · Jun 28, 2020

Chaosmancer said:
First of all, I have no idea why you feel the need to mention them eating their young.

Your point just got me thinking, "Hmm... what would raising offspring look like if the race was inherently evil. What would removing parental love from the equation look like?" Eating their young was one thing that comes from that.

Secondly, why ask me what the difference between them and the other evil races is if you are just going to dismiss it?

I didn't dismiss it so much as show how it'd look. Why do you keep dismissing a made up premise for a made up species?

See, I don't think you should have Half-Orcs in settings where orcs are born evil. Because that is problematic.

I think the rape aspect has been acknowledged as problematic for a long, long time. Pretty sure that's why they were taken out of 2E. Other than that ("other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"), I don't see why half-orcs are problematic in a world where orcs are born bad.

I also, don't really like half-orcs and half-elves as storytelling concepts. I always have to mess with them, because the idea of "born of two worlds and not accepted by either", while something a lot of people struggle with, always felt... I don't know. I want the world to be better than that.

Oh, I agree. I actually really hate the half races and generally exclude them from my home brew settings because they raise questions that don't have good answers outside Tolkien. My response to your question wasn't intended as justification for half-orcs, in general. It was nothing more than an answer that accepted that half-orcs existed and orcs are "born bad" and how I would work within those constraints.

Alzrius · Jun 28, 2020

Mercule said:
Pretty sure that's why they were taken out of 2E.

At the risk of nitpicking, were they really "taken out of 2E" if The Complete Book of Humanoids brought them back in 1993, four years after 2E came out?

Doug McCrae · Jun 28, 2020

Mercule said:
I think the rape aspect has been acknowledged as problematic for a long, long time. Pretty sure that's why they were taken out of 2E.

I think they were removed for much the same reason as the assassin class, demons and devils - fears over anything associated with evil, particularly evil PC options, following the Satanic Panic. Sexual violence in fiction was much less of a concern in the 80s than it is now.

Hussar · Jun 29, 2020

Oofta said:
/snip

If you think orcs are somehow different and special, fine. You're entitled. I just think that slapping an artificial classification on an artificial monster to justify it doesn't help the argument any.

Again, let me ask, is anyone saying that any of the descriptions of those other creatures mirror the racist descriptions of real world peoples? No? Then, well, you just discovered the problem.

There's a reason no one is complaining about centaurs or bullywugs. THEY DON'T USE RACIST LANGUAGE IN THEIR DESCRIPTION.

Is that clear enough? No one is saying to change the "classification" (whatever that means) or being artificial about anything. All that is being said is to change the description to use language that does not mirror the real world language of racism. Is that really that difficult to understand? It's been repeated ad nauseam. Look at the solutions that have been brought up in this thread. NONE of them talk about reclassifying anything. None of them talk about radical changes to anything. ALL of them talk about minor changes to the language to excise the racist language being used.

Do people just not bother reading any of the solutions being brought up?

D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Valchrys

Villager

Chaosmancer

Legend

Imaculata

Hero

5atbu

Explorer

5atbu

Explorer

Mercule

Adventurer

Alzrius

The EN World kitten

Doug McCrae

Legend

Hussar

Legend

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