Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

Amhain · Aug 15, 2020

But in 1974, the "Fighting Man" WAS the martial class. Period. Wiley woodland warriors (the future Ranger), raging barbarians (duh), knights in shining armor (later becoming Paladins), they all fell under its auspices as "guy/gal who fights."

In the intervening 46 years, the Fighter has had its design space chipped away at by more and more "new" classes that were once just parts of its milieu, until it's been left with basically nothing that is unique to it thematically.

Add to that the fact that modern Classes are ALL useful in combat, as being useful in combat has become the baseline minimum for a class to be considered playable, and we're left with an empty shell where the mighty Fighting Man once was.

"It's been there since the beginning" is a terrible reason to keep something that is no longer fit for purpose. Though one could easily call the reworked Barbarian/Fighter hybrid I proposed earlier "Fighter" to keep the term around. Or even "Fighting Man" if one wanted to go for a more retro feel. And this would likely be more palatable to a wider community than killing the name, even if said name is incredibly bland.

Lylandra · Aug 15, 2020

the combat prowess of the fighter in a "fair" 1on1 scenario isn't the problem with the class imo. The problem is that is is lacking in terms of high level fluff/utility.

I agree with the OP's ideas because the fighter is a very broad, unspecialized class per se. Fighters can be everything and everyone. At least in terms of background and free writing. But they lack the tools to make the mechanical distinction as well. Not every fighter is a leader figure like a king or chieftain with followers, but some are. Not every fighter is a wuxia-level physics defying hero a la Cloud Strife or other anime/comic book heroes. Not every fighter dips into the fantasy of another class and becomes a magic knight or Chosen One with healing powers and 6th senses. But all of them are part of the fighter archetype.

Maybe we can break it down to their most important second stat?
Leaders (with followers?): Charisma
Tacticians: Intelligence
Survivors/Athletes: Constitution
Mystic Masters: Wisdom
Acrobats/Wuxia: Dexterity

(And yes please give them skills to match their archetypes!!!)

Elondir II · Aug 16, 2020

Mythic, deadly, noble fighter. He can shred a small army single handedly, and he has a small army.

FrogReaver · Aug 16, 2020

Amhain said:
But in 1974, the "Fighting Man" WAS the martial class. Period. Wiley woodland warriors (the future Ranger), raging barbarians (duh), knights in shining armor (later becoming Paladins), they all fell under its auspices as "guy/gal who fights."

In the intervening 46 years, the Fighter has had its design space chipped away at by more and more "new" classes that were once just parts of its milieu, until it's been left with basically nothing that is unique to it thematically.

Add to that the fact that modern Classes are ALL useful in combat, as being useful in combat has become the baseline minimum for a class to be considered playable, and we're left with an empty shell where the mighty Fighting Man once was.

"It's been there since the beginning" is a terrible reason to keep something that is no longer fit for purpose. Though one could easily call the reworked Barbarian/Fighter hybrid I proposed earlier "Fighter" to keep the term around. Or even "Fighting Man" if one wanted to go for a more retro feel. And this would likely be more palatable to a wider community than killing the name, even if said name is incredibly bland.

In all honesty. Early play generally centered around lower level wizard play. I think fighters leveled faster than wizards as well. I’m not sure what level a fighter would be by the time a wizard hit 5th. Does anyone?

Cap'n Kobold · Aug 16, 2020

FrogReaver said:
If I had to pick a fighter that wasn’t a lord i would go with the one nearly impervious to damage and magic with some ability to insta kill enemies sufficiently weaker than him. He would essentially be the “hero archetype”.

give him abilities to defend allies. Give him a healthy slew of out of ckmbat enhancing bailies that don’t compete with in combat abilities.

that’s my idea of afun high level fighter that doesn’t need to directly compete with wizards world changing power. He’s the enduring hero.

Coming up with combat abilities for a high-level Fighter is easy. Its the out of combat abilities that fit the concept that are hard.

Chaosmancer said:
I'm not sure I agree. The Heavily armored soldier is still a space for the fighter, the master of the battlefield. It may be a thin place, but it is there and should be preserved.

OK. And when off the battlefield, how can we get this class to contribute as much as the wizard with access to Teleport, Shapechange, Clone, Mass Suggestion etc?

Garthanos · Aug 16, 2020

Cap'n Kobold said:
OK. And when off the battlefield, how can we get this class to contribute as much as the wizard with access to Teleport, Shapechange, Clone, Mass Suggestion etc?

There is the million dollar question (or has inflation made it Billion).

I think the answer has always been making sure magic has actual limits and skills are given fewer limits.

Garthanos · Aug 16, 2020

Examples perhaps
What if for instance Teleport was always seen as travel through the ethereal plane instead of instant and was not 100 percent danger free.

What if expertise in the appropriate Charisma skill could do an effect similar to mass suggestion

Gilgamesh could be able to increase his overland travel speed even carrying an ally to 18 times the normal and do so for days. (basically a world class caliber constant sprint with video game caliber ignoring the concept of fatigue)

Tales and Chronicles · Aug 16, 2020

Garthanos said:
There is the million dollar question (or has inflation made it Billion).

I think the answer has always been making sure magic has actual limits and skills are given fewer limits.

I actually like how PF2 handles high roll skill checks, having them have a greater influence. Like scoring a 25+ on a persuasion check could actually impose the charmed condition on the target.

Garthanos · Aug 16, 2020

vincegetorix said:
I actually like how PF2 handles high roll skill checks, having them have a greater influence. Like scoring a 25+ on a persuasion check could actually impose the charmed condition on the target.

Its kind of a natural thought that high skill looks like or bleeds into magic in the magical world of D&D

Minigiant · Aug 16, 2020

vincegetorix said:
I'd say it could be as simple as:

removing the fighter

Add a possible STR-build rogue with medium armor and shield (brute, thug, knave whatever)

Refluff the barbarian to be a little less primal-oriented (or not, if you prefer you Ranger with spells and thus, not mundane).

Create a warlord class.

I think is is beyond the scope of Level Up. These ideas based on the info posted by the survey seem to be not reacted to much by the community. Not here anyway.

TheSword said:
The fighter class has been around since 1974. Love it or hate it, it’s part of D&D’s bones. Yes it absolutely is a sacred cow.

The irony to the forum-hate the fighter gets is that it’s the most popular class according to WOC’s stats. While that may be because of multi-classing and low level play but the suggestion that it would be removed from the game and the role split across other combat classes is a pipe dream.

I have no problem with more tweaks and options, but there is simply no evidence that the fighter needs a complete re-write.

I think it's less fight hate and more a lack of consensus about the high level fighter.

And I hate to say it but it seems to be a generational thing. Older novels, stories, and legends rarely hit the high levels. New books, comics, and TV shows hit high level fighting frequently.

So there is seems to be a 3 way divide. Some who don't care about high level. Some who have a clear definitions of high level fighters. And people who believe in a high level fighter but have no frame of reference.

So there's no need for a rewrite. However we as a community have to discuss what high level fighters look like in order to make the desired variant rules.