D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

Todd Roybark said:

Pass without Trace is a great spell, and being able to cast it off a Short Rest recharge is amazing.
The competition for 2nd level spell slots is fierce, the Shadow Monk just bypasses the spell slot choke point. My cleric of Trickery is jealous

If I had to pick between Pass without Trace or the Inquisitive subclassed Rogue with Expertise in Investigation and Perception, I'm choosing the Rogue. The Rogue finds everything, and those skills can be applied in almost any circumstance.

The Shadow Monk also gets Silence, which is great to muffle the sounds of combat.
All together I think it a fair statement to say a Shadow Monk is better then a Rogue at Stealth.
Maybe not individually better, but one is only as sneaky as their loudest, clumsiest adventuring mate...and the Shadow Monk makes everyone better...substantially better.

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I don’t necessarily agree with the conclusion but I see where you are coming from. Part of what makes skill discussions hard is skills are valued differently in different campaigns.

For example you mentioned perception. In my campaigns the whole party typically makes that check - making my pc with a high perception still likely to roll lower than someone else in the party.

That’s why I made the claim the pass without trace monk is arguably better at skills. I don’t think anything with skills is ever clear cut due to so much table variance in how they are ran.

I do know a group stealth bonus of +10 opens up a whole new group playstyle that tends to be avoided in absence of that buff.

Undrave said:

Tactically, you're better off attacking whenever possible

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The specifics of a situation determines the best tactics, not a generalization.

If the consequences of attacking are dire, then no, tactically you are not better off attacking whenever possible.

If you can't harm a creature, say a golem that has immunity to non magical damage, and you have no magic weapons...it does not seem wise to weapon attack it rather than use the Dodge Action.

If you are retreating, it is quite wise to use the Dodge action.
If you know you are going to have to make a DEX save, it is also quite useful.

FrogReaver said:

I've marked through everything that doesn't relate to dex and wis focus for the monk. That point was standalone and simply stated that being locked into 2 stats that are good for skills is just as good as having flexibility to build dex and wis/int/cha. Let's explore why.

Case 1. Assume the player is not trying to optimize skills to fit into a party. Then the rogue is just as likely as the monk to have skills that the party already has built for.

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Wait let's stop there. This is all in reply to a specific scenario and now you've removed that scenario and made it like my post was a general response when it was not. The scenario was a small party of four or fewer players, you might want a monk over a rogue. My argument is the rogues skills for a party like that, which IS DEFINITELY lacking skills, is important. With a small party you are optimizing skills to fit what's lacking.

Case 2. Assume the player is trying to optimize skills to fit into the party. Then the monk is simply not chosen unless the party needs dex/wis skills.

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Which is the scenario I was replying to, to begin with.

From level 1-4 a rogue has a +2 bonus in 2 skills and proficiency in 1 additional skill.

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No they have 2 additional skills and two expertise (so it's double, plus). Monks get 2 skills, and rogues get 4, and then 2 expertise on top of that. Being able to cast a spell with 2 Ki for one sub-class (which amazingly isn't Ki anyone assumed was spent in any scenario where they were previously arguing all the other things Monks do with Ki, once again proving the point Treantmonk made that people seem to argue Monks have infinite Ki in these white room discussions when it's deeply limited even more than spell slots) does not increase their skills by one. And their list of skills they can choose is much longer as well:

Monk list (6): Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Religion, and Stealth

Rogue list (11 including the important Perception): Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth

And their flexibility in ability scores is greater.

By all counts, a rogue is much better at skills than monks. I have no idea why you're still dying on this hill.

Mistwell said:

Being able to cast a spell with 2 Ki for one sub-class (which amazingly isn't Ki anyone assumed was spent in any scenario where they were previously arguing all the other things Monks do with Ki, once again proving the point Treantmonk made that people seem to argue Monks have infinite Ki in these white room discussions when it's deeply limited even more than spell slots) does not increase their skills by one

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I've mentioned it!

If you expend Ki for Pass Without Trace you better hope you don't have fights right after. Same with the others. The utility is fun but I don't feel like Shadow Monk have enough utility to compensate for the massive drop in DPS they endure if they don't rest after doing out of combat stuff.

Undrave said:

I've mentioned it!

If you expend Ki for Pass Without Trace you better hope you don't have fights right after. Same with the others. The utility is fun but I don't feel like Shadow Monk have enough utility to compensate for the massive drop in DPS they endure if they don't rest after doing out of combat stuff.

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If you assume a monk spends all ki on pass without trace he is only losing about 25% dpr at level 5.

Giving the party 1 surprise round in that day is well worth the individual drop in dpr.

FrogReaver said:

Tactically that’s not necessarily true. Dodge lowers the enemies damage output by roughly half (estimated - and obviously you don’t dodge vs enemies that use saving throw abilities)

As long as you are pretty sure a significant portion of the damage will come at you then bonus action dodge typically is a tactically superior choice.

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Actually, you can dodge with enemies with saving throw abilities if they're dex-based. Especially when you get evasion which will make succeeding any dex AoE to be a breeze (since you also get prof).

Asisreo said:

Actually, you can dodge with enemies with saving throw abilities if they're dex-based. Especially when you get evasion which will make succeeding any dex AoE to be a breeze (since you also get prof).

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I’m not sure that’s worth it. You take half damage if they miss you on a dex save typically. Damage reduction in that scenario is only about 17%.

Snarf Zagyg said:

The way that the 4E monk's "spellcasting" features (Disciple of the Elements) is powered off Ki, as are the melee elements ... doesn't work. At all.

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I disagree with this. I will state up front that I have not seen the 4Element monk in play, but my 'read' of the class is the spellcasting is akin to a warlock's spellcasting: limited, and short rest based.

The spells are 'priced' in Ki to essentially emulate having one spell slot per short rest.
Even with no Ki points a Monk is still an Extra Attack class with a reliable Attack/for bonus action mechanism.

2 Ki points for a Hold Person spell seems a good price to me. A 10th level Monk has 10 Ki points and can spend 4 Ki points to cast Hold Person at a 4th level effective level (can target 3 people).

Spell slots are tight, and most DMs do not give nearly enough scrolls, or allow Mana potions.
A 4E monk essentially has a spell recovery feature that is better then Arcane Recovery.

Todd Roybark said:

I disagree with this. I will state up front that I have not seen 4Element monk in play, but my read of the class is the spellcasting is akin to a warlock's spellcasting: limited, and short rest based.

The spells are 'priced' in Ki to essentially emulate having one spell slot per short rest.
Even with no Ki points a Monk is still an Extra Attack class with a reliable Attack/for bonus action mechanism.

2 Ki points for a Hold Person spell seems a good price to me. A 10th level Monk has 10 Ki points and can spend 4 Ki points to cast Hold Person at a 4th level effective level (can target 3 people).

Spell slots are tight, and most DMs do not give nearly enough scrolls, or allow Mana potions.
A 4E monk essentially has a spell recovery feature that is better then Arcane Recovery.

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Monks can’t upcast their spells. Hold person also costs 3 ki not 2.

FrogReaver said:

If you assume a monk spends all ki on pass without trace he is only losing about 25% dpr at level 5.

Giving the party 1 surprise round in that day is well worth the individual drop in dpr.

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Yeah for one fight that's fine, but if after that fight where you surprise the opponent, you get into a second fight because they heard the sound of battle? And not just your DPR, but your stuns and your defence...it's an hard act to juggle.