Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #3: Rogue

shmeeb · Oct 2, 2020

Things I liked:

All these new exploration knacks are really on point for the Rogue
I like that Tactics and Defense Styles can be swapped out on a level up, that feels appropriate
I'm glad that not every class gets access to every tradition, that makes the Fighter appropriately versatile and customisable
I like the ability to stack expertise on a skill if you want to really specialise

Things that could be better:

Expertise dice kind of remove some of the consistency that came with regular Expertise, but that's not a big problem, it's mostly personal preference
What I feel is a problem is that locking all the features that give you expertise in social skills behind levelled abilities means the social rogues kind of get shafted - maybe those should be reworked into Knacks, and Rogues should just get more of them at those levels? At the very least, you should be able to get training/expertise in Persuasion, Deception and Insight via the skill training/expertise knack

Edit: Forgot to mention - Trapsmith taking 10 minutes makes it pretty situational. Maybe 5?

RSIxidor · Oct 2, 2020

Distraction seems like the penalty should only count against things other than the Rogue.

Veiled Threat should be stated as a choice when you make the Intimidation check. Sometimes you want the whole room to know, sometimes you don't.

Not sure I like Trapsmith as a core Rogue feature. It fits a number of the themes a rogue archetype might have, so I suppose that's easier. Maybe have an alternative to it for those who don't care about making traps? Automatically spotting other traps made by you after having a trap sprung on you seems odd as well. Maybe a bonus instead?

Improved Critical is a nice thing for Rogues to have, and I like that you're building it in a way that lets it get better if you build to focus on it. I also like that the limit of it is 18, because going as deep as 15 lik PF/3.5 does feels like too much.

Not sure how I feel about Defense Style. Were rogues getting too much having Uncanny Dodge and Evasion separately? Then again, they got the critical boost at 5, so something had to change, I suppose. I do like that you can swap it out every level but honestly, I'd just as easily be fine with it being on long rests.

It also seems that Expertise Dice can be applied to skills in which you aren't proficient. Is that intended? It can allow for a sort of pseudo-proficiency in a non-proficient skill, especially if you find a way to double or triple up on it. If that's not intended, I'd make that plain in the Expertise section.

I love the Boobytrapper knack for the builds that enjoy such things.

Hide in the Shadows maybe needs something like "as if obscured" or "you are considered obscured for this check." I don't know, hidden still confuses me some times. The intention is clear but I fear the rules bullies.

akr71 · Oct 2, 2020

Trapsmith FTW! I've always found it odd that setting traps isn't mentioned in the PHB. It could use a bit of polish still, I think.

I'm not crazy about having Uncanny Dodge or Evasion, not both.

Stacie GmrGrl · Oct 2, 2020

Like it. Looks great fun.

Idk if you have this as part of the design philosophy but have you considered giving every class a core defining ability they get at first level that increases in power at higher levels but the only way a character can get these Class Core Abilities is at Level One?

This means that even if you multipass later you never get another classes core defining feature.

This was done in other past games like Stargate SG-1 rpg, Spycraft 1 and 2, and Fantasy Craft.

I bring this up because it would cause a Player to really consider what class they choose at first level and it would be an important choice.

This Effin’ GM · Oct 2, 2020

Still poking around with that longsword, eh?

Larrin · Oct 2, 2020

I think trap smith is awesome for those that want it, but not every rogue is going to want it. It could be an option thing like, pick your shtick form these preparation-based "attacks" : trap-smith, poisoner, con job (for the talky rogue).

I can see why insight, persuade, deceive and intimidate are not offered in the exploration knacks (they are social skills) but it is unfortunate that rogues don't have the same level of "get expertise dice of your choice" in the social skills in the same way they do in the exploration skills. At least that is what I see on first reading. It could just be a mindset thing, maybe level up rogues are more versatile explorers than they are socialites and that is just part of the system. I could probably adapt to that way of thinking if I had to. They still get some social expertise.

This Effin’ GM · Oct 2, 2020

Larrin said:
I think trap smith is awesome for those that want it, but not every rogue is going to want it. It could be an option thing like, pick your shtick form these preparation-based "attacks" : trap-smith, poisoner, con job (for the talky rogue).

I can see why insight, persuade, deceive and intimidate are not offered in the exploration knacks (they are social skills) but it is unfortunate that rogues don't have the same level of "get expertise dice of your choice" in the social skills in the same way they do in the exploration skills. At least that is what I see on first reading. It could just be a mindset thing, maybe level up rogues are more versatile explorers than they are socialites and that is just part of the system. I could probably adapt to that way of thinking if I had to. They still get some social expertise.

I assume this is to set up the Bard to be the social master?

Stalker0 · Oct 2, 2020

There are two general things I think should be clarified in the documents:

1) Is it assumed we can use 5e archetypes with these classes, or do they come with their own "levelup archetypes?" Aka can I use the thief archetype with a level up rogue?

2) How do minor disadvantage / minor advantage interact with various mechanics.... for example sneak attack. Do you generally assume Minor Advantage "counts as advantage" for such purposes, or does it specifically "not count as advantage". This position needs to be clarified generally as it affects a number of things.

Morrus · Oct 2, 2020

Stalker0 said:
There are two general things I think should be clarified in the documents:

1) Is it assumed we can use 5e archetypes with these classes, or do they come with their own "levelup archetypes?" Aka can I use the thief archetype with a level up rogue?

2) How do minor disadvantage / minor advantage interact with various mechanics.... for example sneak attack. Do you generally assume Minor Advantage "counts as advantage" for such purposes, or does it specifically "not count as advantage". This position needs to be clarified generally as it affects a number of things.

Yes, you can use existing archetypes.

The fighter survey very clearly rejected minor advantage, so we’re not pursuing that mechanic.