D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

FitzTheRuke · Oct 10, 2020

robus said:
The internet is rife with vitriol....

While that's certainly true, there's also a lot of perceived aggression where there isn't any intended. I think we're all guilty of inferring insult where none is intended. I think it's the nature of communicating by short, written posts (one of the reasons twitter is so toxic). Professional writers have trouble expressing their thoughts and feelings when limited to a few sentences, why do we expect everyone to do it well? I don't doubt that if I were speaking in-person on the same subject to people I've 'argued' with here, we'd be getting on fine.

robus said:
I’ve become frustrated by the unnecessary extra work they seem to frequently entail to make them into something I can present to my players. I don‘t understand why they don‘t keep them more straightforward.

They definitely could be better. Personally, I think they have been getting better. Honestly, with a few exceptions, I feel that 5e adventures have gotten better as they go (and I've run all of them, at least in part). They're currently, IMO, much better than nearly all (the WotC-written) adventures for 3e and definitely all the 4e ones (and I'm no 4e hater, just had to work hard to make any of the adventures playable).

I guess I'm just so used to having to tweak pre-written adventures that Rime's faults (as discussed in this thread) were so easily fixed that I barely registered the issue until I read about it here (not that I hadn't noticed, I'd just very quickly tweaked it in my head already.)

The 'long winter' aside - Rime is a pretty great sandbox adventure with a lot of clever little bits to it. Quite a bit above average, as far as WotC adventures go.

Umbran · Oct 10, 2020

FitzTheRuke said:
While that's certainly true, there's also a lot of perceived aggression where there isn't any intended.

Mod Note:

Yes, and working in plain text, and living in a real world that is rife with stress surely doesn't help.

To that end...

We want EVERYONE in here to tone the rhetoric down. The premise and framing of a module is not the end of the world. So, start speaking to each other as if the thoughts and feelings of people are more important to you than the qualities of a fantasy game adventure module. If you aren't up to that, please leave the thread now.

Guest User · Oct 10, 2020

TheSword said:
You don’t think Tomb, Descent and Rime are better than Rise, Tyranny, Storm King and Princes?

I don't think Descent/Avernus is much better than SKT.

Descent is a haphazardly filled Bag of Holding, the set pieces provided don't exactly fit together. The actual Encounters in the Nine Hells are dull.

The idea was bold, but the execution was poor. So many different locales oft means a lack of a "sense of place", which helps drive player emotional investment.

The fire giant lair in SKT is a good location. It wasn't worth $40, but I will use it...the other parts, not so much.

Remathilis · Oct 10, 2020

TheSword said:
You don’t think Tomb, Descent and Rime are better than Rise, Tyranny, Storm King and Princes?

I think their quality is generallly uneven; I don't consider Dragon Heist (2018) to be better than Curse of Strahd (2016) for example. While there has been an uptick in rule and statblock proficiency, I still find their storytelling excellent in concept but with inconsistent degree's of quality in execution.

That is not to say WotC is a bad company for this, as both Paizo and Goodman Games (two companies I consider to have rather excellent track records) have put out some rather awful modules in their prime as well. But WotCs offerrings swing wildly from competent (ToA, CoS, OotA) to "I have to redo massive chunks of this to make it work" (SKT, ToD, WDH).

Eltab · Oct 10, 2020

TheSword said:
You don’t think Tomb, Descent and Rime are better than Rise, Tyranny, Storm King and Princes?

HotDQ (especially) and Tiamat suffered from a unique problem: they were written at the same time as the rules were going through their final stage of development. I DM'ed a chunk of campaign overlapping both books and occasionally found myself wondering "What rule / mechanic was that supposed to refer to?" That problem has gone away since.

I've found that my favorite chapter in each AP is the Gazetteer (if there is one) with flavor and local plot hooks and tie-ins to the main theme. 'Exploring Chult' was wonderful ... the Tomb of Unending Death Traps, not my cup of tea. I could use the Tomb of Annihilation book for a 'jungle safari' or Indiana Jones adventure. And I could bring back a "Dr. Jones" character for the part of Storm King's Thunder where you have to erm dig up the Uthgardt ritual mounds.

Chaosmancer · Oct 10, 2020

Flamestrike said:
Being tended to by thousands of spell casting Clerics.

Churches in Faerun have the ability to heal and feed the masses, and even bring them back from the dead. A mid level Cleric is capable of medical marvels that we cant emulate with modern technology (regrowing lost limbs, curing blindness, eradicating viruses and bacterial infections, and even raising people from the dead).

Most Faerun cities are run by incredibly potent spellcasters. The Zents can fall back on the Church of Bane. Halruua has literally hundreds of Archmages at its disposal, as does Thay. The Cowled Wizards run Amn. And so forth.

Even barren and desolate places like Icewind dale have 1 spellcaster per 100 people capable of casting 3rd level spells.

Imagine the sorts of spellcasting resources a place like Baldurs Gate or Waterdeep have at their disposal.

Faerun is not a medieval setting. There are modern instantaneous communications via magic and even instantaneous transportation via teleport, flying ships that can remain aloft indefinitely, interstellar space-craft (and there is one of them in this very adventure), planar travel, advanced healing (you can be literally brought back from nothing more than a finger to be fully formed and alive and well), weather control and other relatively common magical phenomena that far surpass our own technology level, and approaches that seen on Star Trek.

Archmages can literally convert energy into matter, or alter reality with a word. And there are thousands of them wandering around Faerun alone.

Haven't caught up on the thread, so maybe this gets addressed, but in terms of "coherent setting" knowing this fact would still change everything.

The world would be a Theocracy. No ruler would ever dare to challenge the church, because it is the church and the power of the gods that provides food, medicine, soldiers, ect ect.

The only groups that could challenge that churches authority? Druids, Wizards and Bards.

This would change the face of the world in a way that would be interesting, but is also clearly not in practice.

FitzTheRuke · Oct 10, 2020

Remathilis said:
I think their quality is generallly uneven; I don't consider Dragon Heist (2018) to be better than Curse of Strahd (2016) for example. While there has been an uptick in rule and statblock proficiency, I still find their storytelling excellent in concept but with inconsistent degree's of quality in execution.

That is not to say WotC is a bad company for this, as both Paizo and Goodman Games (two companies I consider to have rather excellent track records) have put out some rather awful modules in their prime as well. But WotCs offerrings swing wildly from competent (ToA, CoS, OotA) to "I have to redo massive chunks of this to make it work" (SKT, ToD, WDH).

I ran Out of the Abyss twice, and while I obviously like the main thrust of it, it was quite a bit of work to actually create the individual day-to-day sessions. For most of the book, they left it up to the DM to come up with encounters on their own. IMO, that's a much bigger problem than changing the average temperature or the length of winter (or finding other excuses to make it work).

(Note: I'm not intending to imply anything at all about your position on the subject. Just sharing a thought on it - I seem to be stepping in it here without intending to. At no point in this discussion have I ever intended anything more than sharing idle musings on the books. I've no doubt that if everyone were discussing it in person, the talk would be lively, but friendly. Tone is soooo hard to convey.)

Flamestrike · Oct 10, 2020

Chaosmancer said:
The world would be a Theocracy.

It would be other than the fact there is not one single church to form such a Theocracy. There are literally hundreds of different faiths, all of which are competing against each other.

Some societies are de facto or de jure Theocracies; the ones where the members of the faith of a single God has eliminated all rivals (the Zentarim and their worship of Bane is a good example). The Mulhorandi have united under a loose pantheon, and the Untheric nation did the same.

TheSword · Oct 10, 2020

Remathilis said:
I think their quality is generallly uneven; I don't consider Dragon Heist (2018) to be better than Curse of Strahd (2016) for example. While there has been an uptick in rule and statblock proficiency, I still find their storytelling excellent in concept but with inconsistent degree's of quality in execution.

That is not to say WotC is a bad company for this, as both Paizo and Goodman Games (two companies I consider to have rather excellent track records) have put out some rather awful modules in their prime as well. But WotCs offerrings swing wildly from competent (ToA, CoS, OotA) to "I have to redo massive chunks of this to make it work" (SKT, ToD, WDH).

I totally agree on Curse of Strahd being a high point. I see more and more of the recent adventures using that style of major locations and minor locations. It’s useful in lots of different ways.

I do think Dragon Heist gets a bum rap despite trying to do a city campaign which is always tricky. I think they achieved some great scenes, areas and NPCs. Unfortunately that was where they initiated the ‘alternate streams’ structure echoed in Descent (though a lot less confusing). The chain of A to B to C to D to E etc isn’t alleviated by the fact that in another campaign you could go N to O to P to Q to R etc. That chain needs breaking up, more clues, more options and more freedom. That said it is easy to change as the ‘running the’ threads show.

I find the flawed APs still have a lot in them to use even if you don’t play the campaign as written... monsters, NPCs, even locations. I’m still using locations from Tomb of Aggravation now - the wyrmheart mine is a beautiful location as is the hanging gardens. The improved map quality also makes me very happy for Rime. I don’t have a beef with Dyson Logos but as a lover of battlemaps I really struggle with them.

robus · Oct 10, 2020

TheSword said:
You don’t think Tomb, Descent and Rime are better than Rise, Tyranny, Storm King and Princes?

No and you’re also skipping Dragon Heist & Mad Mage. Dragon Heist especially notorious for not featuring the promised heist!

D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

FitzTheRuke

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Umbran

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Remathilis

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Eltab

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TheSword

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robus

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