D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

humble minion · Oct 12, 2020

wingsandsword said:
About a ton of Forgotten Realms AND Planescape books would say otherwise, very strongly.

Kossuth, Ishtishia, Grumbar, and Akadi all have the rank of Greater Power.

They're more than just elementals with lots of hit dice.

True. But on the other hand, I'd really prefer a hypothetical 5e DS to consider itself unencumbered by what FR, Planescape, and even the 5e PHB assumes is/isn't true about gods.

wingsandsword · Oct 12, 2020

humble minion said:
True. But on the other hand, I'd really prefer a hypothetical 5e DS to consider itself unencumbered by what FR, Planescape, and even the 5e PHB assumes is/isn't true about gods.

Grumbar, Kossuth, Akadi and Ishtishia aren't part of Dark Sun lore to begin with.

The elemental clerics of Dark Sun don't venerate the Elemental Gods (or they didn't in the DS materials I'm familiar with), they draw their power from the elements generally, not in the name of those deities.

The metaphysics and lore of if they are actually channeling power from those deities without using their names is an interesting theory, but one that the official materials are silent on.

My only objection in that regard is the lore issue of introducing conventional deities into DS, which normally there aren't any.

glass · Oct 12, 2020

Wow, I know I am a bit LTTP, but this is a big thread. Anyway, Dark Sun as I would like it to be implemented:

The main things are the environmental themes, the lack of gods & divine magic, the dicotomy between psionics and magic, and the dicotomy between defiling and preserving.
Unlike some in this thread, I think that all the PHB classes fit in OK (with some tweaks obviously). Not every subclass, necessary.
Defiling would be the default for all arcane spellcasting, and perserving would be an option that required more restraint/effort and/or slightly less power - I mused in another thread about how this might be implemented. Defiler and Preserver would also be feats that leaned harder into one aspect or the other.
No divine magic. Clerics and druids are "primal" in modern parlance, and have a more restricted spell list. Templars would be closer to "real" clerics, but since they are generally NPC-only they probably do not need a full class write-up.
Oath of the Ancients Paladins are primal (again with a tweaked spell list). Oath of Devotion Paladins (being basically 2e-style Paladins) do not exist. Not sure what to do about the other kinds.
Arcane Warlocks are a bit of a problem because their version of spellcasting does not sit well with how I envisage defiling & preserving working (and of course a lot of the things they might pact with do not exist). We could have primal elemental-pact warlocks which are thematically another kind of Cleric.
Psionics are distinct from magic, both thematically and mechanically. They are not just another form of magic, and certainly do not use spell slots. This is the most important for me, and the one I least expect to see in an actual 5e Dark Sun.

The "present day" of the setting would be just after or just before the death of Kalak. Both "it used to be just like a typical D&D world" and "halflings of the variously-coloured ages" would be presented as possible backstories.

_
glass.

Raduin711 · Oct 12, 2020

glass said:
Arcane Warlocks are a bit of a problem because their version of spellcasting does not sit well with how I envisage defiling & preserving working (and of course a lot of the things they might pact with do not exist). We could have primal elemental-pact warlocks which are thematically another kind of Cleric.

Psionics are distinct from magic, both thematically and mechanically. They are not just another form of magic, and certainly do not use spell slots. This is the most important for me, and the one I least expect to see in an actual 5e Dark Sun.

I have been wondering lately if Warlocks aren't a better fit for replicating what 2nd edition psionics was like than the sorcerer or wizard.

Reason #1. They didn't have a huge array of powers. A 1st level psionicist had access to 1 science and 3 devotions, all within the same discipline. By 7th level, he would have 4 sciences and 12 devotions. By 20th they would max out at 10 sciences and 25 devotions.

Sciences were on the level of a 3rd- 5th level spell, whereas devotions were 1st level or lower. Maybe even 2nd.

Some example sciences: Clairaudience. Clairvoyance. Detonate. Telekinesis. Complete Healing (only for yourself!) Metamorphosis. Teleport. Teleport Other.

Some example devotions: Hear Light. Know Location. Animate Object. Control Flames. Catfall. Chameleon Power. Dimensional Door. Astral Projection.

Some powers had prerequisites, like Dominate, a Science, required Mindlink, another science, as well as Contact, a devotion.

There was also a Metapsionics discipline, which was more or less a catch-all for all of the powers that had a level requirement.

So, much like the warlock, a psionicist had a few specific, but powerful abilities they could use often. Those were coupled with a collection of abilities that were cantrip-like, though a few were pretty hefty.

Reason #2: While much ado has been made of psionic strength points over the decades, it is worth noting that the 2e version had psionicists regaining PSP's hourly... Provided they weren't doing anything strenuous. This, to me, bears more resemblance to the Warlock's short rest than the Sorcerer's daily spell points.

Reason #3: I might be stretching here, but psionics was double-edged, much like the warlock's pact.

Psionics had a built-in critical failure system, but most failures fit into the following categories:
1- your target knows what you were trying to do. (Psionic invisibility makes everyone around you aware of your attempt and desire to be invisible. ha.)
2- temporary loss of a few points of ability score.
3- nothing.

A few had some hair-brained flaws. Some were a complete reversal of whatever it was you were trying to do, which could be a real problem. Probably the most deadly were the ones that made your psionicist appear to be dead unless they were violently struck, which is a good way to end up actually dead if you didn't tell the party what you were up to or what might happen.

While critical fumbles probably don't need to be carried forward, the idea that psionics might actually be dangerous to the practitioner might serve to fill the hole that the patron once filled. For example, a psionicist suddenly finding themselves undergoing an impromptu spirit journey is in keeping with 2nd edition psionics. (Much like some 5e DM's might use a warlock patron as a plot device.)

Eh. I said it was a stretch.

wingsandsword · Oct 12, 2020

Raduin711 said:
A few had some hair-brained flaws. Some were a complete reversal of whatever it was you were trying to do, which could be a real problem. Probably the most deadly were the ones that made your psionicist appear to be dead unless they were violently struck, which is a good way to end up actually dead if you didn't tell the party what you were up to or what might happen.

The worst critical failure for a psionic power, that I can remember, was for Disintegrate.

Critical failure? Instead of disintegrating something else, it targets you, save or die.

I remember that because of that, my multiclassed Wizard/Psionicist in a 2e game researched a "Protection from Internal Disintegration" abjuration spell that if you failed the save and would otherwise be disintegrated, the spell blocked it and then expired. I think we decided that was a 2nd level spell.

Raduin711 · Oct 12, 2020

wingsandsword said:
The worst critical failure for a psionic power, that I can remember, was for Disintegrate.

Critical failure? Instead of disintegrating something else, it targets you, save or die.

I remember that because of that, my multiclassed Wizard/Psionicist in a 2e game researched a "Protection from Internal Disintegration" abjuration spell that if you failed the save and would otherwise be disintegrated, the spell blocked it and then expired. I think we decided that was a 2nd level spell.

Ok, THAT is pretty bad.