D&D 5E It's official, WOTC hates Rangers (Tasha's version of Favored Foe is GARBAGE)

Shardstone said:

Paladin can stack Smites with Smite Spells on its turn.

Rogue's power is always on.

Cleric Divine Divinitiy's never interfere with Concentration, even on minute long events.

Paladin auras too!

Monk ki features can be used even if you have a Concentration spell up.

Barbarian is an exception, since you can't cast ANY spells as a raging Barbarian, so you get one point there

Hexblades can maintain their curse without concentration! Wild! And Shadow Sorcerers their summons at 6th level! And Druids like the Wildfire, Star, or Fungus, who use their Wild Shapes to transform into "super Druid" states.

Quite a few can use their class abilities while concentrating. They may use another resource, sometimes even spell slots, but I've already said if Favored Foe used a spell slot and didn't have concentration I'd be more satisfied!

By the way, it wasn't a strawman if you said it was good enough, haha. I may have used stronger language, but what I typed and what you typed is philosophically the same thing! You think its good enough, and I think that being good enough shouldn't be where we stop!

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Things like a paladin's smite also take up spell slots to use. So it's very limited (and don't get me started how I think the paladin is broken because of that, so IMO, it's the last class that should be used in how to do things). Because the paladin has to use up spell slots to use smite, they literally can't use those slots any longer to cast spells, unlike the ranger who still gets to use those spells whenever they want and still get a damage bonus. That's not a small difference. Also, many of those examples you gave, those are the core feature for that subclass, and FF is not a core feature of a ranger subclass. Comparing the two is disingenuous.

And no man, it is literally a strawman for you argue that I said "it's not terrible, so it doesn't need improvement." when I actually said 'it's a good ability right now." That's just blatantly dishonest of you to frame my statement like that, and they certainly aren't the same thing.

so shine on, I'm done.

Gladius Legis said:

If there's no incentive to continue past 5th level in a class, that is a bad class in my book. Most campaigns proceed to between levels 9-12.

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According to online stats 70% are level 1-6 and only 10% go past 10.

I think focusing on the Favored Foe, or damage in general, really doesn't aligns with what people are saying is actually wrong with the Ranger class.

I don't have any problems with the Ranger, they're probably my second or third favorite class and personally, I've had no problem with the Ranger's abilities in any campaign type I've participated in. That said, I don't want to completely dismiss people's complains off-hand, which is why its important to focus on the actual complaints of those who have played the class, and not try to fix an area that was never really broken (damage/combat).

The most frequently complained features of the Ranger are the 1st level ones, which Tasha's is seeking to remedy. The issues, however, are not that they aren't useful. The issue is that they're too situational for most players. That's why I have 2 fixes, one of which can even be placed into either an Errata or a Sage Advice without actually changing the mechanics.

The first fix, which would involve a true "fix" would be to just increase the number of terrains and monster types the Ranger can choose. Give them 3 monster types and 2 terrain types from level 1 so that such situations where the features don't come up are rare. You can also adjust the amount of additional features they gain upon level up, like 2 extra terrains instead of one. You can combine these two so that the Ranger is practically guaranteed to have all terrain types under their belt by level 10. This way, the Ranger's features are almost always relevant at high levels no matter what the DM throws at you.

Th second fix, I will actually convey in the same way the Sage Advice Compendium is so that you all can get a feel for how simple these fixes are.

Q. Does a Ranger need to be in their favored terrain to gain expertise on their ability checks?
A. No. The Ranger can benefit from their favored terrain as long as they are proficient in the relevant Wisdom or Intelligence ability check and the task is related to their favored terrain. So a Ranger with Desert as their favored terrain trying to read a snake's intentions with Wisdom (Animal Handling) does so with double their proficiency bonus even if they are not in the Ranger's Favored Terrain.

Q. Does a Ranger automatically reach their destination if they are in their Favored Terrain?
A. No, because not getting lost is not the same as knowing where you're going. Getting lost means you always walk in your desired direction, but it does not mean that you always reach your target destination. If you don't know where your destination is precisely, you must locate it yourself.

Q. Do cities and dungeons fall within the list of Terrains the Ranger can choose?
A. Yes. The terrain, in the case of civilizations or a structure, is the surrounding terrains. A city on a mountain counts as a Mountain Terrain while a cave in the forest still counts as the forest, so long as it doesn't connect to the Underdark.

Q. When a creature is hidden, is it possible to know their location?
A. Yes. If the creature is hidden, the seeker must make a perception check to find the creature. However, the seeker can also infer the creature's position by tracking it down. In this way, a creature can still attack a hidden creature's inferred location, but they do so at disadvantage.

The last one may seem arbitrary and unhelpful but it actually clarifies a few things. That is, that a hidden creature is not, by all accounts, unable to be located. Sure, locating a hidden creature precisely may need a search check, but having the information to guess the location is available. This immediately gives the tracking 1st-level feature an immediate combat utilization for the Ranger.

Asisreo said:

I think focusing on the Favored Foe, or damage in general, really doesn't aligns with what people are saying is actually wrong with the Ranger class.

I don't have any problems with the Ranger, they're probably my second or third favorite class and personally, I've had no problem with the Ranger's abilities in any campaign type I've participated in. That said, I don't want to completely dismiss people's complains off-hand, which is why its important to focus on the actual complaints of those who have played the class, and not try to fix an area that was never really broken (damage/combat).

The most frequently complained features of the Ranger are the 1st level ones, which Tasha's is seeking to remedy. The issues, however, are not that they aren't useful. The issue is that they're too situational for most players. That's why I have 2 fixes, one of which can even be placed into either an Errata or a Sage Advice without actually changing the mechanics.

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I definitely agree with you. My initial thought for a fix back when 5E came out was to let a ranger change their favored terrain. At first level, changing it might take some amount of downtime in that terrain. At 6th level, the upgrade could let them change it upon taking a long rest in that terrain. The 10th level feature would let them change it on a short rest.

I always thought favored enemy, though, and Hunter's Mark should have been merged into a class ability. Parity with Smite would have been great. Being able to upgrade it to cast it on a creature from studying their tracks at higher levels would be cool.

I also felt like favored enemy itself could have been the basis for the subclasses. Undead Hunter. Dragon Slayer. Giant Slayer. Horde Slayer. I feel like these strongly define different kinds of rangers.

One thing I've noticed recently about the ranger is that I feel there are too many skills that the ranger feels like they need to be good at, so they feel too limited in their skill selection. Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival are too important to their kit, that I feel I don't get any other options unless my race gives other proficiencies. Does anyone else feel this?

Xeviat said:

One thing I've noticed recently about the ranger is that I feel there are too many skills that the ranger feels like they need to be good at, so they feel too limited in their skill selection. Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival are too important to their kit, that I feel I don't get any other options unless my race gives other proficiencies. Does anyone else feel this?

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Well, that raises an interesting question. Which of those four are mandatory for a Ranger if they want to fulfill their role and have their class features work, and which ones are just the standard package for the standard issue traditional Ranger and can be ignored if you're going non-standard?

Some classes like Fighter and Wizard, their skill picks can go almost anywhere without impacting their core features. Others like Rogue that are more skill oriented have skills that feel like class features and it's highly unusually not to take them. I think Rangers fall more towards the latter, but not to the degree you're saying. Of that list, only Survival feels like the completely mandatory one. Ignoring the rest would be going significantly off-brand, but not cripplingly so.

Kurotowa said:

Well, that raises an interesting question. Which of those four are mandatory for a Ranger if they want to fulfill their role and have their class features work, and which ones are just the standard package for the standard issue traditional Ranger and can be ignored if you're going non-standard?

Some classes like Fighter and Wizard, their skill picks can go almost anywhere without impacting their core features. Others like Rogue that are more skill oriented have skills that feel like class features and it's highly unusually not to take them. I think Rangers fall more towards the latter, but not to the degree you're saying. Of that list, only Survival feels like the completely mandatory one. Ignoring the rest would be going significantly off-brand, but not cripplingly so.

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for me, ranger must have; Stealth, Nature, Perception and Survival.
also preferred skills for a ranger would be; athletics, acrobatics, investigation, medicine, animal handling, insight,

I would even change starting skills from 3 to choose from to those 4 FIXED, and then if those 4 overlap with race/background, you can chose other ranger skills on 1-on-1 basis.
I.E. wood elf ranger with outlander background would have proficiency in Athletics, Stealth, Nature, Perception, Survival and 2 skills to chose from as Survival and Perception overlap in race/background/class proficiencies.

then instead of natural explorer and favored enemies on levels 1 and 6, give rogue ability expertise:
2 at level 1, 2 at level 6, but all 4 must be for Stealth, Nature, Perception and Survival. you pick which 2 at 1st level and which 2 at 6th level.

Xeviat said:

I definitely agree with you. My initial thought for a fix back when 5E came out was to let a ranger change their favored terrain. At first level, changing it might take some amount of downtime in that terrain. At 6th level, the upgrade could let them change it upon taking a long rest in that terrain. The 10th level feature would let them change it on a short rest.

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Interesting idea but if they can change it on a long or short rest wouldn't it just be quicker and simpler to say "At 6th level any terrain becomes favoured terrain once you have spent [24 minus level] continuous hours in it."

If that's not the end result you want, you need to limit how often a Ranger can change favoured terrain - once a week, once a month, or something.

My fixes :
Favored Enemy
Beginning at 1st level, you have significant experience studying, tracking, hunting, and even talking to a certain type of enemy.

Choose 2 types of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies. You gain the following benefits when dealing with your Favored Enemies:

• You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks to track and perceive the hidden work of your favored enemies. (a little broader in application)
• You have advantage on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
• You have the ability to communicate in a limited manner with your favored enemy, even if you do not share a language. They can understand the meaning of your words, though you have no special ability to understand them in return. You have advantage on all Charisma and Wisdom (Insight) checks you make to influence them. (mimic the Firbolg ability)

You choose one additional favored enemy at 6th and 14th level. At the end of a long rest in your Favored Terrain, you can change one of your Favored Enemy for another if you've encountered them before. (light restriction ala druid's wildshape).

Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, caverns, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp or urban. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you're proficient in.

While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:

• Your group can't become lost except by magical means.
• Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling, making camp or sleeping you remain alert to danger.
• You and your companions can move stealthily at a normal pace and Wisdom (Survival) and Wisdom (Perception) made to track or spot you are made at disadvantage while traveling.
• When you forage, you automatically know if the food or water gathered is poisoned or diseased and you and your allies regain 2 more Hit Die at the end of a long rest.
• When you end a long rest in your favored terrain, you can change one of your known spell for another from the Ranger's list.
• As long as you are in a favored terrain, you are always considered as carrying a component pouch for the purpose of your Spellcasting feature.
• While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.

You choose additional favored terrain types at 6th and 10th level. At the end of a long rest, you can change one of your favored terrain for the type of terrain where you finished your rest.

Primeval Awareness
Beginning at 3rd level, you can use your action to focus your awareness on the region around you. For 1 minute, you can sense through supernatural sight or hearing whether your favored enemies are present within 100 feet of you (or within up to 1 miles if you are in your favored terrain) if they are not behind total cover. You know the location and alignment of any being whose presence you sense (but not its identity). Within the same radius, you also detect the presence of any place, beast or plant that has been desecrated or enchanted by magic or is blighted by poison or diseases.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to 1 + your Wisdom modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses.

Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you and your allies can spend 1 minute creating camouflage. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.

Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and +10 to Initiative roll as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once a creature camouflaged moves or takes an action or a reaction, they must camouflage themselves again to gain this benefit, but have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks for 1 minute.

Foe Slayer
At 20th level, you become an unparalleled hunter of your enemies. Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll or the damage roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies and the creature cannot regain hit points until the start of your next turn. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.

Kurotowa said:

Well, that raises an interesting question. Which of those four are mandatory for a Ranger if they want to fulfill their role and have their class features work, and which ones are just the standard package for the standard issue traditional Ranger and can be ignored if you're going non-standard?

Some classes like Fighter and Wizard, their skill picks can go almost anywhere without impacting their core features. Others like Rogue that are more skill oriented have skills that feel like class features and it's highly unusually not to take them. I think Rangers fall more towards the latter, but not to the degree you're saying. Of that list, only Survival feels like the completely mandatory one. Ignoring the rest would be going significantly off-brand, but not cripplingly so.

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The ranger has 2 class abilities that solely key off Stealth. They're also so high level, at 10th and 14th, that if you oops and don't take stealth, you're left with abilities that don't really help you. As a medium armor class, it is perfectly reasonable to build a strength ranger with a 14 dex and go with a stealth penalty medium armor and think you're going to be fine.

Xeviat said:

The ranger has 2 class abilities that solely key off Stealth. They're also so high level, at 10th and 14th, that if you oops and don't take stealth, you're left with abilities that don't really help you. As a medium armor class, it is perfectly reasonable to build a strength ranger with a 14 dex and go with a stealth penalty medium armor and think you're going to be fine.

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I think this is not quite correct.

Yes, these abilities use stealth, but I disagree that they key off of stealth.

Assuming a typical bow-wielding Ranger but no stealth proficiency, they'd probably have either a +4 or +5 to stealth already. Using the Hide in Plain Sight ability, you've given yourself a +14 or +15 to stealth without proficiency, which is probably excessive. This also stacks with Pass without Trace, meaning you could have a +24 or +25 to stealth with no proficiency when you truly need it. If anything, I find having proficiency in stealth might be excessive by those levels. You'd have +19 to stealth which is probably way above the majority of perception checks.

If you have Vanish, you're almost guaranteed to have a +5 to stealth. Pass without Trace is also a good spell when doing this. When you do this, you're actually hiding just as well as a rogue with expertise in hiding.