D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

Ashrym · Jan 22, 2021

Stoutstien said:
The spell casting rules in the PHB govern your spells which would excludes those rules as well if the spells are deemed to be originating from the SSI which is the base of the "it's not spell casting" ruling which has been verified by sage advice.

The only restrictions the SSI have to be activated is it needs to be held by a creature that can take an action,which the SSI feature provides if needed, and the spell effect(s) occur. The spell casting ability modifier is given but the rest is omitted which leaves room for multiple interpretations on how to fill in the blanks or if the blanks exist at all.

The SSI is an paradox of sort of you look at it without infering what they meant

clearstream said:
So far as I know, there is no general rule for spell effects produced from items. A group might feel the SSI to be similar to a ring of spell storing, which users the original caster's stats. One puzzle will be why SSI references only the artificer's ability modifier? Elsewhere, where such limited language is found, it means what it says: use only the ability modifier, not proficiency. Still, most (perhaps all?) items - from scrolls to rings to wands - that store spells that are later cast or produced from them do use values that match an original caster's stats. If there is an intended general rule, then I believe that provides relevant context.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the ability modifier is the artificer's, and that PB is going to be used, but that it is going to be the SSI's current wielder's? That doesn't match any general rule at all, not even that for a spellcaster casting their own spells. I'm trying to think of a case where a spell cast or production mixes one creature's ability modifier with another's PB... can you point to any?

I'll illustrate to save time. Bob the artificer (alchemist) turns 11th level and wants to use the SSI.

Spell-Storing Item said:
At 11th level, you learn how to store a spell in an object. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one simple or martial weapon or one item that you can use as a spellcasting focus, and you store a spell in it, choosing a 1st- or 2nd-level spell from the artificer spell list that requires 1 action to cast (you needn’t have it prepared).

While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spell’s effect from it, using your spellcasting ability modifier. If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate. The spell stays in the object until it’s been used a number of times equal to twice your Intelligence modifier (minimum of twice) or until you use this feature again to store a spell in an object.

Bob looks at the spell list and decides levitate is a good option.

Levitate said:
One creature or loose object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically, up to 20 feet, and remains suspended there for the duration. The spell can levitate a target that weighs up to 500 pounds. An unwilling creature that succeeds on a Constitution saving throw is unaffected.

The effect for levitate includes a CON save so Bob needs the rule for the saving throw that's included in that part of the spell effect. Bob looks in chapter 10 of his PHB and finds the rule.

PHB Chapter 10 - Saving Throws said:
Many spells specify that the target make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the spell's effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure.

The DC to resist any one of your spells equals 8 + plus your spell casting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers.

Bob gives the SSI to Marley the fighter. Marley uses the SSI to levitate the evil assassin Dargoon. Marley looks up how this works in his PHB and sees what is quoted above. The spell effect for levitate states the target is required to make a CON save. The rules for spell casting in chapter 10 of the PHB state the formula is 8 + 4 (Marley's proficiency bonus as an 11th level fighter) + 5 (Bob's INT bonus as per the SSI modification to the general formula found in chapter 10 to which levitate refers) for a 17 DC save requirement.

Marley also notices the spell attack rules and formula are right underneath the saving throw rules in the same section. ;-)

It's RAW because all of the spell effects that the SSI would use tell the player how to apply the INT modifier in the spell description, and those spell descriptions use the general rules for DC's and attacks given.

If the SSI was cure wound instead Marley would heal someone d8+5 because the spell dictates how the ability modifier is applied. The SSI only dictates which ability modifier to use; nothing more.

Bob casting cure wounds (as an alchemist) would heal d8+10 using alchemist supplies while a typical bard would use the same slot for d8+5 getting back to our comparisons.

Stoutstien · Jan 22, 2021

Ancalagon said:
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but have you looked at the twilight cleric? They make that turret look like chump change. 1d6+level in a 30 foot radius, every round, no action or concentration required.

The twilight cleric gives the THP on a different timing mechanic with it being at the end of another person's turn and always centers on the cleric where the artillerist can hand off the cannon to another player and be somewhere else. Also the durations are very different so while they are both THP they are very different.

tetrasodium · Jan 22, 2021

Stoutstien said:
The twilight cleric gives the THP on a different timing mechanic with it being at the end of another person's turn

at the end of everybody's turn

It even comes a full level before the half caster artificer gets their archetype selection

The turret is useful yes, but lets not pretend it's on the same level or that the difference of when they trigger in initiative order will be more than possibly more or less useful than the other in a particular situation by random chance. Either way they only trigger once before a given bad guy gets another turn making the timing difference far less significant than the action cost difference.

Stoutstien · Jan 22, 2021

Ashrym said:
I'll illustrate to save time. Bob the artificer (alchemist) turns 11th level and wants to use the SSI.

Bob looks at the spell list and decides levitate is a good option.

The effect for levitate includes a CON save so Bob needs the rule for the saving throw that's included in that part of the spell effect. Bob looks in chapter 10 of his PHB and finds the rule.

Bob gives the SSI to Marley the fighter. Marley uses the SSI to levitate the evil assassin Dargoon. Marley looks up how this works in his PHB and sees what is quoted above. The spell effect for levitate states the target is required to make a CON save. The rules for spell casting in chapter 10 of the PHB state the formula is 8 + 4 (Marley's proficiency bonus as an 11th level fighter) + 5 (Bob's INT bonus as per the SSI modification to the general formula found in chapter 10 to which levitate refers) for a 17 DC save requirement.

Marley also notices the spell attack rules and formula are right underneath the saving throw rules in the same section. ;-)

It's RAW because all of the spell effects that the SSI would use tell the player how to apply the INT modifier in the spell description, and those spell descriptions use the general rules for DC's and attacks given.

If the SSI was cure wound instead Marley would heal someone d8+5 because the spell dictates how the ability modifier is applied. The SSI only dictates which ability modifier to use; nothing more.

Bob casting cure wounds (as an alchemist) would heal d8+10 using alchemist supplies while a typical bard would use the same slot for d8+5 getting back to our comparisons.

The hang up that every other time a spell is cast or spell effect is produced or originates from an item, magical or otherwise, it explicitly states who's spell casting ability to use OR it has a stated DC or attack modifier listed.

tetrasodium said:
at the end of everybody's turn
View attachment 131695

It even comes a full level before the half caster artificer gets their archetype selection
View attachment 131696
The turret is useful yes, but lets not pretend it's on the same level or that the difference of when they trigger in initiative order will be more than possibly more or less useful than the other in a particular situation by random chance. Either way they only trigger once before a given bad guy gets another turn making the timing difference far less significant than the action cost difference.

The artificer can give the THP to as many targets as they wish in range as a bonus action and the cleric doesn't give anyone anything, other than themselves, until someone else's turn. That can be a big difference if a table has lots of different NPCs on independent counts. Im not saying one is superior but they function differently. If looking at flat THP production the cleric will win but having a cannon walking around that is immune to 90% of the effects in the world is much harder to give a rating to.
The artillerist is also more likely to have the cannon up before before combat where the cleric can preload it but then it's more of an either/or situation where the cannon is steadily producing the THP before, during, and after the encounter.

the cleric is closer to the shepherd druids bear totem than the protector cannon but anytime draws a direct parallel between the artificer and a full caster in any regard, it's a good clue that it's doing just fine IMO.

tetrasodium · Jan 22, 2021

Stoutstien said:
The hang up that every other time a spell is cast or spell effect is produced or originates from an item, magical or otherwise, it explicitly states who's spell casting ability to use OR it has a stated DC or attack modifier listed.

The artificer can give the THP to as many targets as they wish in range as a bonus action and the cleric doesn't give anyone anything, other than themselves, until someone else's turn. That can be a big difference if a table has lots of different NPCs on independent counts. Im not saying one is superior but they function differently. If looking at flat THP production the cleric will win but having a cannon walking around that is immune to 90% of the effects in the world is much harder to give a rating to.
The artillerist is also more likely to have the cannon up before before combat where the cleric can preload it but then it's more of an either/or situation where the cannon is steadily producing the THP before, during, and after the encounter.

the cleric is closer to the shepherd druids bear totem than the protector cannon but anytime draws a direct parallel between the artificer and a full caster in any regard, it's a good clue that it's doing just fine IMO.

Yes they function differently. Only one of them costs something other than time to trigger into existence. Only one of them is created by a half caster. Only one of them has an action cost to trigger,. Only one of them has a 15ft move speed Only one of them has 3x the range of the other. They are both good if not great abilities. The problem comes in regards to the fact that there were a lot of places they could hang a limitation that offsets one or more great abilities but in the case of one they applied too many limitations & left too much unsaid for gm interpretation. The fact that they toggled every limitation they could find to hang one acts as a big flashing neon light for suggesting to the gm how they should rule when unstated areas come into question or creative uses of what may or may not be the unintended result of misguided attempts to be interesting with natural language. All of those limitations add up to more than the sum of their parts & impact many areas of the class beyond just that turret being compared

Many of those limitations are completely nonsensical to boot. On page 55/56 of Rising artificers are half casters wo can swap leveled spells but not cantrips on long rests. On page 11 pf tashas it says the same, yet on page 76 the full caster wizard with similar but different longrest leveled spell swapping gets to add cantrips to the swapping

Blue · Jan 22, 2021

As a point of interest, I'm seeing all sorts of "well, this class's signature ability beat Artificer". Twilight cleric can do more tHP than Artillerist, Bards can do X, Clerics can do Y.

What I'm getting out of this is that the Artificer may not be a master of any single discipline, but comes in strong enough in every category that you need to pull out the big guns for that category to beat it. Sounds like a well rounded and versatile class.

cbwjm · Jan 22, 2021

I would assume that SSI would use the rule for magical items found in the DMG:

A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.

In the case of SSI, the bit about using the artificer's intelligence overrides the mention of using your own ability modifier.

Levistus's_Leviathan · Jan 22, 2021

Blue said:
As a point of interest, I'm seeing all sorts of "well, this class's signature ability beat Artificer". Twilight cleric can do more tHP than Artillerist, Bards can do X, Clerics can do Y.

What I'm getting out of this is that the Artificer may not be a master of any single discipline, but comes in strong enough in every category that you need to pull out the big guns for that category to beat it. Sounds like a well rounded and versatile class.

I agree. They're actually a "Jack of All Trades" class, as they get to prepare their spells and have a vast range of abilities that they can get from their spells (healing, revivification, damage, battlefield control, summoning, utility, etc). They are also very versatile with changing their infusions, just needing to take a long rest to switch out their paladin's +1 Longsword with a Replicate Prosthetic Limb or some other infusion they have known.

It's a very versatile class. They may not be the best damage dealers, but they're pretty good at it if they need to be (Armorers, Battle Smiths, Artillerists). They might not be the best healers, but they can be really good at it when they need to (Alchemists, Battle Smiths). They might not be the best tanks, but they again can do a very good job at tanking when needed (Guardian Armorers, Artillerists, Steel Defenders). They're not the best skirmishers, but are good at it when they need to (Invisibility is on their spell list, Infiltrator Armorers, Homunculus Servants, Battle Smiths, etc).

They're one of the most versatile classes in the game. They can be a Tank one day and then switch to a Skirmisher the next, then switching to a healer on the next day, and then a frontline fighter on the next. Not many classes can do that, and none of them can as easily as the Artificer can.

clearstream · Jan 22, 2021

cbwjm said:
I would assume that SSI would use the rule for magical items found in the DMG:

A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.

In the case of SSI, the bit about using the artificer's intelligence overrides the mention of using your own ability modifier.

I had the feeling there was a rule like that somewhere, but couldn't find it. DMG 141. The wording isn't great, because the literal implication is that your proficiency bonus does apply only if you don't have a spellcasting ability! That seems perverse. According to that general rule, the spell is cast at the lowest spell and caster level.

Stoutstien · Jan 22, 2021

cbwjm said:
I would assume that SSI would use the rule for magical items found in the DMG:

A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.

In the case of SSI, the bit about using the artificer's intelligence overrides the mention of using your own ability modifier.

clearstream said:
I had the feeling there was a rule like that somewhere, but couldn't find it. DMG 141. The wording isn't great, because the literal implication is that your proficiency bonus does apply only if you don't have a spellcasting ability! That seems perverse. According to that general rule, the spell is cast at the lowest spell and caster level.

SSI is not a magical item which is the corner stone of the ruling that allows it to fall under the item interaction action and not the active a magic item action.