D&D General The History of 'Immersion' in RPGs

Hriston · Feb 21, 2021

Hussar said:
But there are a number of things that your character does that are based on intelligence that are not checks. Tactical acumen, for example. Being able to remember details. If you are playing a low Int character, do you forgo taking notes? Do you make bad tactical decisions? So on and so forth.

There are far more ways to demonstrate and illustrate a character than simply through random die checks.

This seems to assume that it's a priority of play for the player to "demonstrate and illustrate" their character at the table, which is what I've called characterization in this thread. This isn't necessary, or even in some cases desirable, for roleplaying, which is making your character's decisions. Through my roleplaying of my character at the table, the table finds out who my character is based on the decisions s/he makes. I'm not interested in simulating a person with a low level of intelligence by pretending I've forgotten things or making decisions I know to be unsound. To me, that seems like not engaging with the game and using your character as an excuse.

Hriston · Feb 21, 2021

Maxperson said:
That's fine, but your rejection constitutes at the very least a home brew view of the game. Your home brew of what intelligence means in D&D doesn't invalidate what I've said here regarding how the game uses low stat numbers.

I disagree, obviously. I haven't changed the meaning of Intelligence as it's explained in the book. I also don't care if you think I've homebrewed something. What I'm rejecting is the idea that anything on the character sheet is defining of my character in a binding way, i.e. that it establishes fiction about my character. It does not. Only events that are acknowledged to have happened in the game-world by the group around the table have that power. My character exists only in my head and the heads of the other people at the table. The character sheet, on the other hand, is merely a tool for me to interact with the mechanics of the game.

Swarmkeeper · Feb 21, 2021

Hriston said:
I disagree, obviously. I haven't changed the meaning of Intelligence as it's explained in the book. I also don't care if you think I've homebrewed something. What I'm rejecting is the idea that anything on the character sheet is defining of my character in a binding way, i.e. that it establishes fiction about my character. It does not. Only events that are acknowledged to have happened in the game-world by the group around the table have that power. My character exists only in my head and the heads of the other people at the table. The character sheet, on the other hand, is merely a tool for me to interact with the mechanics of the game.

Very much this. There is no strict prescribed way to play an 8 intelligence in the rules in 5e. As already mentioned, the player determines what their character thinks, says, and does/tries to do.

Hriston · Feb 21, 2021

Lanefan said:
This...

...is quite different from this:

The latter is very important.

Yup.

Lanefan said:
As for the former, and going back to the difference between stage acting and RPGing for a minute, just because the character's your own and doesn't have to follow scripted lines doesn't excuse you-as-its-portrayer from paying attention to the guidelines established (in the script notes///on the character sheet) for/around said character and having those guidelines inform your portrayal. Wilfully ignoring those guidelines falls, IMO, into pretty much the same bucket as wilfully ignoring the dice on those occasions when you don't like what they roll.

I don't think my character sheet is a set of guidelines for roleplaying my character. It defines a PC solely in mechanical game-terms. My character, on the other hand, is a fiction that exists in my mind. The character sheet refers to it but is not it. When roleplaying, I draw on my mental image of this fictional person, as much as possible experiencing what that person experiences. It has nothing to do with the character sheet. I don't see how there's anything on the sheet to ignore, and I'm not sure what you mean by ignoring the dice either. The dice, when they're used, determine what happens. Do you mean to suggest that someone could just decide for themselves that something else happened?

Lanefan said:
Put another way: honour what's on the character sheet as established fiction, because it is. It's backstory, in a way, and falls under the same aegis as the backstory the DM has established for the setting: that being a reflection of what was in place before play began. It's kind of a brute-force mechanical summation of the results of what you'd have got if you had long-form-roleplayed this character through all of the x-many years of its life before joining the adventuring crew.

No, I'll just go with the character as I imagine it, and if part of its backstory is relevant to what's going on in the game, I'll tell the rest of the participants about it, so it becomes part of the established fiction.

Hriston · Feb 21, 2021

Lanefan said:
Patterns and precedent.

My point is that after a certain time there comes a point where if something different starts happening it not so much new fiction as it is a violation of established pattern and precedent.

To paraphrase Hamlet, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Lanefan, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I think this might just be a problem you have with the system. Dice can be swingy, but IMO that's why we use them, because of the surprises they might bring to the emergent story. When the dice determine that something happens that breaks precedent, I think it's best to honor that's what happened and deal with the implications. I'm not sure what the alternative even is.

Campbell · Feb 21, 2021

Screw precedent. Play a person, not a concept. When I play a roleplaying I just try to be present and base decisions on a generalized view of what feels true to the character in the moment. That stuff on the character sheet is just there if we need to engage with the mechanics. Having to double check decisions against ability scores is a detriment to the free flowing nature of the process (for me personally). In my experience if someone is playing in a way I would be tempted to verify their play against a character sheet we have much bigger problems.

I know one thing for certain : if we all treated high Wisdom the way some people want to treat Low Intelligence I would never be able to play a Cleric or Monk again.

Hussar · Feb 21, 2021

Bedrockgames said:
To me the most important part was always feeling you are there, interacting with the world through your character. Whether that character is you with the serial numbers filed off, or some person totally different from yourself, was never hugely important to us (though people often would do the latter)

But, there is also the issue of the other four (or so) people at the table. Just because you feel yourself to be immersed, if your presentation of the character is so bad, that can hurt the immersion of the other people at the table.

Hriston said:
This seems to assume that it's a priority of play for the player to "demonstrate and illustrate" their character at the table, which is what I've called characterization in this thread. This isn't necessary, or even in some cases desirable, for roleplaying, which is making your character's decisions. Through my roleplaying of my character at the table, the table finds out who my character is based on the decisions s/he makes. I'm not interested in simulating a person with a low level of intelligence by pretending I've forgotten things or making decisions I know to be unsound. To me, that seems like not engaging with the game and using your character as an excuse.

I strongly disagree. What you are calling characterization is the first priority of role play. It is ALWAYS necessary for roleplay. Otherwise, you aren't actually playing your character, you are simply playing a pawn that has nothing to do with the character you created for the table.

If you aren't characterizing your character, then you aren't roleplaying. Full stop. If your decisions are not based on the character you created, but rather on whatever you, the player feels like at the time, then you aren't roleplaying.

clearstream · Feb 21, 2021

Hussar said:
Well, after about the third character, wouldn't this get really, really tired?

Sure, it's a character concept just like any other, but, when you have that player who plays Himself the Fighter, Himself the Wizard, Himself the Cleric, it gets REALLY REALLY stale, very quickly.

Not at all, it remains as fresh as the myriad of situations I find to immerse myself in. Me as eldritch knight swept down a rushing underground river to escape an enraged black dragon. Me as fiend pact warlock having made one deal too many. Me as arcane trickster escaping over winter rooftops. Immersion. In the world. For me it is the most immersive to imagine that I am really there.

For you it might become tired or @Thomas Shey feel narrow. I would say that happens only if you find yourself unable to imagine otherwise. And I would not make any similar criticism: I can well appreciate how some might enjoy pretending to be a different person - immersion in being someone else rather than somewhere else.

clearstream · Feb 21, 2021

Hussar said:
But, there is also the issue of the other four (or so) people at the table. Just because you feel yourself to be immersed, if your presentation of the character is so bad, that can hurt the immersion of the other people at the table.

You've played with the average roleplaying group, right? Are you really saying they are all talented actors!?

I accept my fellow players level of interest and attempt at representations generously. I allow my imagination to do the work that often my fellow players can't or don't, because all our day jobs are not acting and at best we are amateur thespians.

Bedrockgames · Feb 21, 2021

Hussar said:
But, there is also the issue of the other four (or so) people at the table. Just because you feel yourself to be immersed, if your presentation of the character is so bad, that can hurt the immersion of the other people at the table.

This has literally never come up in any group I've played with. And this is never something that has impacted my own immersion (I honestly don't see how a player not abiding by some personality trait listed on their character sheet, which I am probably not even aware of, is going to impact my immersion). My attitude with this stuff is you are going to have different styles of player at the table. So far that hasn't been a problem (some people deeply play a character unlike themselves, some basically play themselves).

D&D General The History of 'Immersion' in RPGs

Immersion and Role Playing in the 1970s

Hriston

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Hriston

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Hriston

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