D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

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It would be interesting to do an Oriental Adventures right, I'm just not sure it can be done even if you had consultants/authors that were experts in east Asian cultures.
Worth noting that the original OA actually did do this. It's I think unique actually in D&D "cultural appropriation" books in that it did that (certainly stuff like Maztica didn't - I think that's a much more offensive work than OA, too, and probably not a coincidence). They may even have been paid - they were certainly credited. Only as consultants though - the author was obvious Zeb Cook. Also they were all Japanese.

And I think if Oriental Adventures had been called "Japanese Mythology Adventures", the criticism of it would be vastly more muted.

But the problem remains that it's called "Oriental Adventures", but is pretty much solely about Japanese Mythology (with a few non-Japanese monsters IIRC, but that's about it), and it presents itself as dealing with "The Orient" not "fantasy Japan".

OA is bad but like, I read a critique of Maztica recently by an black American writer, and he pointed out that one of the things that makes it extra-bad is that the locals pretty much suck at everything, and have weakass magic and so on, and seem to be just inferior to people from Faerun or whatever that continent is called, but at least with OA, everyone is a total badass with their own badass powers which are not merely inferior reflections of Western stuff. That doesn't absolve it but I think in the hierarchy of problematic-ness, it's nowhere the worst D&D has been (nor RPGs in general, eh, WoD Gypsies?).
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Worth noting that the original OA actually did do this. It's I think unique actually in D&D "cultural appropriation" books in that it did that (certainly stuff like Maztica didn't - I think that's a much more offensive work than OA, too, and probably not a coincidence). They may even have been paid - they were certainly credited. Only as consultants though - the author was obvious Zeb Cook. Also they were all Japanese.

And I think if Oriental Adventures had been called "Japanese Mythology Adventures", the criticism of it would be vastly more muted.

But the problem remains that it's called "Oriental Adventures", but is pretty much solely about Japanese Mythology (with a few non-Japanese monsters IIRC, but that's about it), and it presents itself as dealing with "The Orient" not "fantasy Japan".

OA is bad but like, I read a critique of Maztica recently by an black American writer, and he pointed out that one of the things that makes it extra-bad is that the locals pretty much suck at everything, and have weakass magic and so on, and seem to be just inferior to people from Faerun or whatever that continent is called, but at least with OA, everyone is a total badass with their own badass powers which are not merely inferior reflections of Western stuff. That doesn't absolve it but I think in the hierarchy of problematic-ness, it's nowhere the worst D&D has been (nor RPGs in general, eh, WoD Gypsies?).

Main problem with Maztica is.

1. It's bad.
2. It's a bit to on the nose based on real life events. Not very original.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I have to disagree with this. Some people believe that playing games that depict demons/devils is harmful. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. That is what they believe. This is what conservatives complain about liberals... things that a conservative christian believes can be dismissed as non-relevant and not worthy of inclusion.
The complaints about the depiction of demons and devils is constructed on a completely different basis. Depicting demons and devils does not perpetuate harmful beliefs about Christians. Generally, the argument against them is that it will somehow lead people to Devil worship (which is demonstrably false) or something about seeing depictions of evil being inherently damaging to the soul (which is rooted entirely in belief and is non-falsifiable.) On the other hand, depictions of races that rely on harmful stereotypes and echo ways that people have used to justify real-world bigotry is a categorically different sort of issue. Comparing them is absurd.
 
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HJFudge

Explorer
The complaints about the depiction of demons and devils is constructed on a completely different basis. Depicting demons and devils does perpetuate harmful beliefs about Christians. Generally, the argument against them is that it will somehow lead people to Devil worship (which is demonstrably false) or something about seeing depictions of evil being inherently damaging to the soul (which is rooted entirely in belief and is non-falsifiable.) On the other hand, depictions of races that rely on harmful stereotypes and echo ways that people have used to justify real-world bigotry is a categorically different sort of issue. Comparing them is absurd.

It is no absurdity to point out that the argument that was made in the 1980's by those under the influence of the Satanic Panic that

"This game will influence the behavior of the people who play it"

is the same as the ones made that portraying a race or stereotype in D&D will

"Cause the behavior of the people who play it to reinforce racial stereotypes"

In both cases, the claim is that behavior will be changed. That actual harm will be done. The behavior in question might be entirely different, but the ARGUMENT is exactly the same.

Are we seriously pretending otherwise? I cannot do that. It is manifestly untrue. No matter how insulting people may find it. It is the truth.

In fact, the argument that D&D race/alignment/portrayal will harm others is rooted entirely in belief and is non-falsifiable. I cannot prove that it will not. One cannot prove a negative.

I have yet to see any evidence, even just anecdotal, that it will. I have read the reasoning. It just doesn't ring true. I am very aware of the en-vogue theories. I just find they are not convincing and they ask that I take much too many of their claims on faith.

The argument that has the most merit is: "It makes me uncomfortable and it makes others uncomfortable." Okay. But...so did the demons and devils back in the 80's. They made a large segment of the population uncomfortable.

WOTC has taken the same action in both instances...because it is the product of the same thing.
 

I don't think the distinction is at all clear-cut.

Eh, tropes are overarching ideas, stereotypes are a subcategory that specifically to peoples and putting intrinsic qualities onto them because of their ethnicity or gender or some other quality.

An explorer in a primitive land is captured by natives who take him to a volcano to be sacrificed. Trope or stereotyping?

Both. The scenario is a trope, the depiction of the natives is a stereotype as we are associating the natives with "primitivity" and depicting it through human sacrifice.

The sorceress turned her back on humankind after she was abandoned at the altar by the king's son. Trope or stereotyping?

Trope, at least in this limited context.

One culture in a war are urbanized, decadent, and ruthless. The other are rural, virtuous, and courageous. Trope or stereotyping?

Stereotype, as it's putting values on to a culture by virtue of where they live.

The villain's greed is represented by depicting her/him as fat and always eating in front of others. Trope or stereotyping?

Trope. If it were depicted as being related to their ethnicity, then it'd be a stereotype.

The slacker best friend of the protagonist is a slob, never has a girlfriend, and can't hold down a job. Trope or stereotyping?

Trope. If it were, say, a slacker because they were part of ______, then that'd be a stereotype.
 

Scribe

Legend
I don't think the distinction is at all clear-cut.

An explorer in a primitive land is captured by natives who take him to a volcano to be sacrificed. Trope or stereotyping?

The sorceress turned her back on humankind after she was abandoned at the altar by the king's son. Trope or stereotyping?

One culture in a war are urbanized, decadent, and ruthless. The other are rural, virtuous, and courageous. Trope or stereotyping?

The villain's greed is represented by depicting her/him as fat and always eating in front of others. Trope or stereotyping?

The slacker best friend of the protagonist is a slob, never has a girlfriend, and can't hold down a job. Trope or stereotyping?
The issues, where one draws the line here, is similar to what is, or is not acceptable within a corporate setting. I just went through one of those yearly training refreshers and its down to what is or is not protected.

Exploring a primitive land is a trope. Depiction of the residents of that land would potentially be stereotyped.
Sorceress? Sounds like a trope.
War? Almost certainly going to get into stereotypes.
The Villain? Trope, unless you tie the appearance of the villian to other noted stereotypes.
Slacker? I would assume trope. Slackers are not a protected class of person. :p
 

It is no absurdity to point out that the argument that was made in the 1980's by those under the influence of the Satanic Panic that

"This game will influence the behavior of the people who play it"

is the same as the ones made that portraying a race or stereotype in D&D will

"Cause the behavior of the people who play it to reinforce racial stereotypes"

In both cases, the claim is that behavior will be changed. That actual harm will be done. The behavior in question might be entirely different, but the ARGUMENT is exactly the same.

Are we seriously pretending otherwise? I cannot do that. It is manifestly untrue. No matter how insulting people may find it. It is the truth.

In fact, the argument that D&D race/alignment/portrayal will harm others is rooted entirely in belief and is non-falsifiable. I cannot prove that it will not. One cannot prove a negative.

I have yet to see any evidence, even just anecdotal, that it will. I have read the reasoning. It just doesn't ring true. I am very aware of the en-vogue theories. I just find they are not convincing and they ask that I take much too many of their claims on faith.

The argument that has the most merit is: "It makes me uncomfortable and it makes others uncomfortable." Okay. But...so did the demons and devils back in the 80's. They made a large segment of the population uncomfortable.

WOTC has taken the same action in both instances...because it is the product of the same thing.

No, you are misunderstanding two points.

First off, you can't compare this to the Satanic Panic of the 80's because that was ridiculous not because of the idea that D&D could influence you, but that people thought it could allow you to do impossible things: cast spells, summon demons, etc. That was part of why it's not comparable to what is being talked about.

The second part is that you are conflating "behavior" with "attitude". This is common mistake and you see it most often when people talk about video games, and how they don't have any effect on kids. The fact of the matter is that video games (and D&D) won't change your behavior: it won't get you to shoot up a school, it won't get you to murder your friends for XP, or any of the other big ridiculous behaviors.

It can, however, influence your attitude. Playing violent video games, for example, can desensitize you to violence. Similarly, if you play games with stereotypes you become less concerned about those stereotypes in real life because the game normalizes them. The idea that media influences your attitudes is so proven that it's almost inarguable: we have commercials for a reason, and we have propaganda for a reason. Pop culture matters, and D&D is absolutely pop culture, even if how you absorb it (roleplaying) is drastically different from how you may absorb other parts of pop culture.

Will bad depictions in D&D make you an instant racist, burn a cross, commit a hate crime? No. But it'll probably desensitize you to other bad depictions, make you care less that they are there, and generally influence your attitude so that those depictions are normalized in your mind one way or another. It doesn't make you do things, but it can make you tone-deaf to the things around you by making them seem at least "alright", which is why you get offensive stuff like Bright. And Bright's not trying to be racist, but the problem is that it is dealing with bad tropes and in trying to work with those tropes (even subverting them) it comes off as ridiculously offensive.

And at the worst, it'll have people defend that stuff because it was normalized for them and they just don't see why it's offensive. And I'm not talking about the people in this thread, but to give an example... okay, Mortal Kombat. Everyone knows that one, right? Well, when they released their 2009 game, Sonya Blade looked like this:

sonya-blade-c19e4402-4e09-4b4a-af8f-22c3040d9ce-resize-750.png

Well, when the next game came out in 2015, she looked like this:

3253a4b6eb528ea100c5682dcd419f42.jpg

And when that happened, there was something of a minor naughty word fit with some of the fans. They said they were making her ugly, they were "desexifying" her and all sorts of stuff. That wasn't just being guys being stupid and horny, but them reacting to basically being shown that what they liked before maybe wasn't that great. They had been taught that the former image was alright, and when the latter came out they felt like they were being told they were wrong. And that's the sort of naughty word you get: if you just let stuff sit, you let it fester and entrench itself. Video games has a problem with objectifying the naughty word out of women, and hell even TTRPGs have had that problem: we all have seen chainmail bikinis on covers before. You normalize something and it becomes harder to change when you know it's probably not a great thing to have.

That's the sort of attitudinal change that happens in things like D&D if you just let bad stuff sit. Again, no one is likely to go out and murder someone for Gruumsh. But you can tell people that stereotypes are cool in D&D, and if they are cool in D&D, people will be more okay with them in real life. That's the influence of pop culture.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It is no absurdity to point out that the argument that was made in the 1980's by those under the influence of the Satanic Panic that

"This game will influence the behavior of the people who play it"

is the same as the ones made that portraying a race or stereotype in D&D will

"Cause the behavior of the people who play it to reinforce racial stereotypes"

In both cases, the claim is that behavior will be changed. That actual harm will be done. The behavior in question might be entirely different, but the ARGUMENT is exactly the same.

The argument is drastically different, and that you can’t see the difference indicates that you don’t actually understand the latter argument. The former is “seeing demons and devils in a game will make people want to worship the Devil.” The latter is “uncritically perpetuating harmful stereotypes contributes to the continued existence and cultural acceptance of those stereotypes.” The former is founded on the assumption that seeing a thing in fiction will somehow change someone’s behavior. The latter recognizes that there is a broad behavioral tendency, which most of us believe to be negative, but is still treated very uncritically by society, including in our fiction.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
The argument is drastically different, and that you can’t see the difference indicates that you don’t actually understand the latter argument. The former is “seeing demons and devils in a game will make people want to worship the Devil.” The latter is “uncritically perpetuating harmful stereotypes contributes to the continued existence and cultural acceptance of those stereotypes.” The former is founded on the assumption that seeing a thing in fiction will somehow change someone’s behavior. The latter recognizes that there is a broad behavioral tendency, which most of us believe to be negative, but is still treated very uncritically by society, including in our fiction.

It's similar because both sides want to shut something down they disagree with. Motivations are different goals are different.

They did sanitize 2E and yeah that lasted to 3E where they threw it out officially although one could argue 2E changed course around 95/96 and after the WotC takeover.
 

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