D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

Justice and Rule · Feb 24, 2021

Ruin Explorer said:
Is that a mod? I don't remember space-hyenas being in Stellaris! Looks good if so!

Oh dang, I knew I missed something. Yeah, it's a workshop item but it hasn't been updated in forever and a half. Sad, because the maker I believe works for Paradox right now. Would love to see some of their creations make it into the game, but it's been a long while since I sat down and played.

Voadam · Feb 24, 2021

Justice and Rule said:
Or we can use my suggestion of making them a more complex raiding culture akin to the Vikings.

Yeah, really change them by giving them axes as a signature weapon and maybe a pantheon ruled by a one-eyed war god who wields a spear.

fearsomepirate · Feb 24, 2021

Ruin Explorer said:
I don't see a single post from anyone in this thread that says anything of the sort.

Maybe don't make things up about what other people said? It's so much easier if you quote them when saying this sort of thing - that way you yourself may see you are wrong whilst typing it.

PsyzhranV2 said:
1. Nobody argued that.
2. Rather than morally wrong I'd argue that the 5e take on gnolls is boring, and an unnecessary change from when gnolls used to be officially playable. They could have gone with a new type of undead or fiend if they wanted to use the "big demon spawns little demons by eating" concept (which IMO would have made more sense for the concept rather than using humanoids).

So it's not racist if a race of savage, bloodthirsty, demonspawned humanoids has hyena-like features, but it is racist if they have gray skin, fangs, and a massive underbite.

I feel like at this point, we're arguing over whether or not a pit fiend is still satanic if you get rid of his cloven hooves.

Justice and Rule · Feb 24, 2021

Voadam said:
Yeah, really change them by giving them axes as a signature weapon and maybe a pantheon ruled by a one-eyed war god who wields a spear.

When the shoe fits...

fearsomepirate said:
So it's not racist if a race of savage, bloodthirsty, demonspawned humanoids has hyena-like features, but it is racist if they have gray skin, fangs, and a massive underbite.

I feel like at this point, we're arguing over whether or not a pit fiend is still satanic if you get rid of his cloven hooves.

It's not racist when they're demonspwaned humanoid hyenas because that doesn't really match an ethnicity, it's just boring as hell. But the sections I posted from Volo's are very much stuff that was said about colonized and marginalized peoples, along with them being mechanically dumber and bloodthirsty.

Like, I thought this was settled but I guess we gotta go back to it.

Oofta · Feb 24, 2021

I'd also add that I think perfection is often the enemy of good. Complexity is often the enemy of fun.

If monsters are boring for you, change them. In my experience of games with dozens (hundreds?) of players monsters including orcs as written work just fine. This hue and cry for complexity? Orcs being represented as bad is bad? Never seen it in home campaigns or public games.

I wouldn't even know it was an issue if it wasn't for public forums.

Azzy · Feb 24, 2021

Oofta said:
If monsters are boring for you, change them.

By counterpoint, if monsters are too complex for you, change them.

You see how unhelpful and silly both arguments are?

Oofta · Feb 24, 2021

Azzy said:
By counterpoint, if monsters are too complex for you, change them.

You see how unhelpful and silly both arguments are?

How much page count do you want in the MM? What will be enough? We have what, 600-700 words on orcs in just the PHB?

Throw in other campaigns, VGtM there's probably a few thousand words. When is enough enough?

Besides this level of detail this style has worked for half a century and the game is more popular than ever. I'd say the burden of proof is on those that want to throw it all away.

Ruin Explorer · Feb 24, 2021

fearsomepirate said:
So it's not racist if a race of savage, bloodthirsty, demonspawned humanoids has hyena-like features, but it is racist if they have gray skin, fangs, and a massive underbite.

I feel like at this point, we're arguing over whether or not a pit fiend is still satanic if you get rid of his cloven hooves.

????????????

This has nothing to do with anything anyone has actually said.

Ruin Explorer · Feb 24, 2021

Oofta said:
Besides this level of detail this style has worked for half a century and the game is more popular than ever. I'd say the burden of proof is on those that want to throw it all away.

I'm saying stick with the style, you're saying change it.

I literally provided examples of the 5E MMs after the first. They're in the style I'm describing. You're complaining about them.

Justice and Rule · Feb 24, 2021

Oofta said:
How much page count do you want in the MM? What will be enough? We have what, 600-700 words on orcs in just the PHB?

Throw in other campaigns, VGtM there's probably a few thousand words. When is enough enough?

Besides this level of detail this style has worked for half a century and the game is more popular than ever. I'd say the burden of proof is on those that want to throw it all away.

Do you really need hundreds of more words, or do you just need to change what's already on the page?