D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

HJFudge · Feb 24, 2021

Justice and Rule said:
Depends on how it is structured? I mean, Reavers are a cool example, but I have no clue how they have managed to last as long as they have while being completely insane. Warcraft Orcs made pacts with demons, but I don't know how deeply that extended, and obviously they broke out of that.

Reavers existing for decades only makes sense if you squint but then again this is a universe where they have cool western train robberies in space so I don't hold up the lens TOO close. They fulfill the role of 'ravening horde' narratively for the story, as well as acting as a mystery plot hook and an interesting reveal...and a bit of a dues ex machina at one point too in the Serenity movie.

Reavers, an all bad cannot be reasoned with shoot on sight group, makes for a very interesting story element. A key one, even!

I dunno too much about warcraft lore. But they do got the whole shamanistic vibe goin on, hard, from what I've seen anyway.

Justice and Rule · Feb 24, 2021

HJFudge said:
Reavers existing for decades only makes sense if you squint but then again this is a universe where they have cool western train robberies in space so I don't hold up the lens TOO close. They fulfill the role of 'ravening horde' narratively for the story, as well as acting as a mystery plot hook and an interesting reveal...and a bit of a dues ex machina at one point too in the Serenity movie.

Reavers work in the show, make for a cool twist in the movie, and basically you'll make it through a viewing without really thinking about how they can possibly subsist for that long without basically starving since they're blood-crazed murder people.

But also that Deus Ex Machina was pretty cool.

HJFudge said:
Reavers, an all bad cannot be reasoned with shoot on sight group, makes for a very interesting story element. A key one, even!

Sure, very much like your Warped idea. Feels like you could mix the two in pretty well.

HJFudge said:
I dunno too much about warcraft lore. But they do got the whole shamanistic vibe goin on, hard, from what I've seen anyway.

Yeah, I've kind of glanced it over but I'm not going to make any sort of statement because I am just not in the state of mind to really absorb a ton of lore on something right now.

But it looks fairly cool.

CleverNickName · Feb 24, 2021

Tangential to the current topic, I would like to present: Every Episode of Popular Space Show^TM

Justice and Rule · Feb 24, 2021

CleverNickName said:
Tangential to the current topic, I would like to present: Every Episode of Popular Space Show^TM

I saw the TNG font and I was like "Oh God, is this that episode with the 19th Century Irish stereotypes?!"

Charlaquin · Feb 24, 2021

HJFudge said:
Well sure but thats part of the problem, innit? That a whole race does this as default seems to be just as problematic as portraying all gnolls/orcs/drow/oozes as violent killing machines that go around eating people and enslaving them.

Monocultures in the default lore are, it is being argued, bad. Yes this goes for mindflayers too, in my opinion.

That’s a valid opinion, and worth considering, though personally I think mind flayers are removed enough from anything you could reasonably call a “person” that it isn’t a problem in the same way or to the same degree as it is with orcs.

Also, note that the Illithid themselves are slaves of the Elder Brains. If this came to be seen as a serious issue, we could always introduce free-willed Illithid that escaped their Elder Brain (though current canon would suggest that would lead them to become Neothelids). Or, heck, maybe a good Elder Brain who leads its colony against the rest of their kind. Seems pretty cool to me.

HJFudge said:
I mean can we think of a real life culture that is often sickeningly and racistly portrayed as malign plotters that infect a group from the shadows, engineering a plot for world domination ensuring that they rule? One immediately comes to MY mind rather quickly and famously.

Charlaquin · Feb 24, 2021

Haffrung said:
Do we have any evidence that the presentation of mental illness in a fantasy wargame has any effect on people's real-world beliefs and behaviours? Any more than the relentless violence conjured up in a fantasy wargame affects people's real-world beliefs and behaviour?

Behaviors? No. Attitudes? Yes.

Oofta · Feb 24, 2021

Justice and Rule said:
Orc

Orcs are large and powerful humanoids who can be found across Khorvaire, but particularly in the Demon Wastes, the Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches.[5] While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual...

eberron.fandom.com

I mean, I think they're distinct enough, though I don't find "mindless barbarians" to be particularly distinct from humans since you can totally have humans as those, too.

Depends on how it is structured? I mean, Reavers are a cool example, but I have no clue how they have managed to last as long as they have while being completely insane. Warcraft Orcs made pacts with demons, but I don't know how deeply that extended, and obviously they broke out of that.

To me, those are all either tied to a specific locale or could be any group of humans. They're, what's the word? Oh yeah. Boring. YMMV.

Justice and Rule · Feb 24, 2021

Oofta said:
To me, those are all either tied to a specific locale or could be any group of humans. They're, what's the word? Oh yeah. Boring. YMMV.

You can remove the locales pretty easily. The difference between "tribe" and "clan" orcs has meat on it.

And honestly, I find it hard to believe they are more boring than "generic bloodthirsty barbarian race".

Mind of tempest · Feb 24, 2021

Oofta said:
To me, those are all either tied to a specific locale or could be any group of humans. They're, what's the word? Oh yeah. Boring. YMMV.

and a random brute with an axe is better how?

Charlaquin · Feb 24, 2021

HJFudge said:
That is a question:

Is it still problematic to portray a race as All Evil if the REASON they are all evil is not their fault? Think reavers from firefly/serenity. They cannot be reasoned with, there are no good reavers. But it is also entirely not their fault, they are 100% victims in a way.

So how about it? Are always bad orcs still problematic if they're the victims of a curse that turns them into violent, raging homicidal maniacs that just barely maintain an order, but for the sole purpose of more efficient mayhem causing?

Depends on the context. The Critical Role setting (Exandria? Or is that a continent in the setting?) does this with its orcs and goblins and it’s... Not well handled, in my opinion. But I could certainly imagine a case where the concept was handled better. It’s at least an improvement, making the “evil” traits the result of something that was done to the creatures in question rather than a product of some essential nature.