D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

Cap'n Kobold · Mar 1, 2021

Flamestrike said:
I said in a duel with each other at 40'. You were the one that brought up the 'uber optimized BM/CE/SS Fighter' and how the monk has no answer to that.

Yes. I brought up that the performance of monks was as good as a baseline fighter, but it was hard to build a monk able to perform as well as an optimised fighter.
You then appear to have suggested that the existence of a PvP-focused build built to counter that generalised optimised Fighter build indicates that monks can be equivalently optimised for performance?
Are PvP or solo- low-HP monster encounters common in your games?

I was just pointing out that a Kensai monk (considered one of the weaker subclasses) can hold his own against precisely that exact 'build'.

And as for the two of them in the same party, they absolutely hold their own.

As requested, could you go into details please? It looks like the suggested build has burned almost all its resources in the first two rounds on a single target.
I mean there is nothing wrong with that monk build. It just seems a little focused on one situation, and I do not think its performance over the course of a normal adventuring day will match up to the optimised fighter's.

Minigiant · Mar 1, 2021

CubicsRube said:
The monk is in an odd thematic place in D&D. I think it's always had a bit of an identity crisis that way

It's less an identity crisis and more that designers have been hesitant from allowing the monk to move past many decades old kung fu movies and tv shows. And like before, they are locking into limited design as all the main monk feature refer to each other.

Flamestrike · Mar 1, 2021

Cap'n Kobold said:
As requested, could you go into details please? It looks like the suggested build has burned almost all its resources in the first two rounds on a single target.

I did above using average rolls.

If anything, the 'rolls' favored the Fighter (he hit with all 4 attacks vs AC 18 at disadvantage at +8, including 1 with Sharpshooter 'on' at only +3, only needing to use 2 x superiority die on Precise shot in the process, leaving him 2 extra die to use on Pushing attack.

If anything he rolled really well!

We also presumed that the Fighter was only stunned on the final attack, and did not adust the monks DPR on account of making 4 attacks with advantage (and the higher crit chance).

Flamestrike · Mar 1, 2021

Cap'n Kobold said:
I mean there is nothing wrong with that monk build. It just seems a little focused on one situation, and I do not think its performance over the course of a normal adventuring day will match up to the optimised fighter's.

How is it focused on 'one build'?

It's taken Alert (always good on every build) and Martial Adept (Ambush and Menacing strike, also good on a Kensai).

Zardnaar · Mar 1, 2021

Flamestrike said:
Why would the Fighter move? He's a CE. He can shoot just fine in melee.

I said in a duel with each other at 40'. You were the one that brought up the 'uber optimized BM/CE/SS Fighter' and how the monk has no answer to that.

I was just pointing out that a Kensai monk (considered one of the weaker subclasses) can hold his own against precisely that exact 'build'.

And as for the two of them in the same party, they absolutely hold their own.

Point but in a real game that fighter is going to be vastly more useful than the Monk.

Easier comparing monk to rogue vs fighter.

And it's the -5/+10 feats doing it, I pointed out they were great in 2014.

Monk holds up well class vs class. If they made a -5/+10 feat for monks fighters would be lol.

Flamestrike · Mar 1, 2021

Zardnaar said:
Point but in a real game that fighter is going to be vastly more useful than the Monk.

I wholly disagree.

See the Archmage example above.

Zardnaar · Mar 1, 2021

Flamestrike said:
I wholly disagree.

See the Archmage example above.

You're cherry picking things. Monks good 1vs1 against specific monsters.

NPC types like archmages also very squishy with weak defenses.

Fly spell monk goes F I'm a bad archer.

Easiest patch seems to be a -5/+10 feat for monks.

I use mixed encounters but tell the players what to expect. 40% melee, 30% ranged,30% mixed probably close to what I do.

Flamestrike · Mar 1, 2021

Zardnaar said:
You're cherry picking things. Monks good 1vs1 against specific monsters.

Monks have excellent mobility, are Dex based and tend to go first and have enough juice to Stun 1 thing per encounter for a round from around 6th level.

Most encounters have something that is nasty (spellcasters, I'm looking at you) and where stunning that creature completely changes the outcome (and the flow) of the encounter.

It shuts down an entire rounds worth of damage from that creature (considerable damage from spellcasters, usually AoE's) while granting your entire party advantage to kill the thing and it automatically fails its Dex saves (greatly upping their damage).

Zardnaar · Mar 1, 2021

Flamestrike said:
Monks have excellent mobility, are Dex based and tend to go first and have enough juice to Stun 1 thing per encounter for a round from around 6th level.

Most encounters have something that is nasty (spellcasters, I'm looking at you) and where stunning that creature completely changes the outcome (and the flow) of the encounter.

It shuts down an entire rounds worth of damage from that creature (considerable damage from spellcasters, usually AoE's) while granting your entire party advantage to kill the thing and it automatically fails its Dex saves (greatly upping their damage).

It's also a con save. I used stunning strike but often just used two extra attacks that knocked prone.

Some monks use it to impose disadvantage most of the time that's a mistake.

Stuns cute but death is still best debuffs.

Flamestrike · Mar 1, 2021

@Zardnaar

Here is an adenture for 4 x 6th level PCs:

Into the Darkness – Free D&D 5e Adventure for Level 6 PCs - The DM Lair

Creatures Encountered: (according to the author) are green hag, flesh golem, duergar, vampire spawn, vampire (??!!), shadows, gricks, spirit naga.

I dont know the exact breakdown (and I presume the PCs are not actually supposed to fight the CR 13 Vampire!) but lets go with

E1: Green Hag and Flesh Golem
E2: 1 x Duergar Warlord and 4 Duergar
[Short rest]
E3: 2 x Vampire Spawn
E4: 5 x Shadows
[Short rest]
E5: 2 x Gricks
E6: Spirit Naga

As a roughly 'par' adventuring day.

Many of those creatures are very susceptible to being stunned (the spirt naga, duergar warlord, vampire spawn, and the golem or hag), and many have resistance or even immunity to non magical weapons (not a problem for the monk).

The 6th level Monk has magical weapons as a class feature, and enough Ki to blow 3 points (one flurry and two stun attempts) per encounter, while the BM gets 2 dice per encounter (plus an action surge to use in an encounter of his choice).

D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

Cap'n Kobold

Hero

Minigiant

Legend

Flamestrike

Legend

Flamestrike

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

Flamestrike

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

Flamestrike

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

Flamestrike

Legend

Similar Threads